www.tdiclub.com

Economy - Longevity - Performance
The #1 Source of TDI Information on the Web!
Forums Articles Links Meets
Orders TDI Club Cards TDIFest 2016 Gone, but not forgotten VAG-Com List Unit Conversions TDIClub Chat Thank You




Go Back   TDIClub Forums > VW TDI Discussion Areas > TDI (Diesel) Emissions

TDI (Diesel) Emissions This is a discussion about emissions from TDI's. Pro's cons of Diesels (including biodiesel) effects on the environment and how they compare to Gasoline and other fuel sources for Internal combustion engines.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old October 2nd, 2015, 01:24   #1
DRotblatt
Newbie
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Los Angeles
Default TDI NOx emissions compared to average car

I just purchased a Golf Sportswagen TDI August 30...two weeks later the news hit. Seemed really bad, but I really wanted to know: "Just how much pollution is my TDI putting out compared to regular gas cars on the road?"

Let me know if my thinking seems right, because the news isn't good.

Searched all over the web and finally found the EPA test results for cars tested in each year. The document for year 2015 "Certified Vehicle Test Result Report Data (XLS)" in http://www3.epa.gov/otaq/crttst.htm shows those results. Here are some random examples (I just found 4 cars I recognized), along with the Jetta TDI:

Ford Explorer: NOx=0.01300, CO=1.67000
Mini Cooper (5 Doors): NOx=0.01550, CO=0.39000
Dodge Dart: NOx=0.02000, CO=0.85000
Jeep Cherokee: NOx=0.01300, CO=1.39000
Jetta (gas): NOx=0.0149, CO=0.3770

Jetta (diesel): NOx=0.03100, CO=0.0100

The Dodge dart is the worst offender, with a NOx of 0.02000 g/mile. Thus if my TDI is doing 15X the max emissions (.05), then it is equivalent to 37.5 Dodge Darts on the road. If we compare it to the best (the jeep or explorer???) it's like 57 jeeps/explorers of NOx emissions.

It is like my worst nightmare...
DRotblatt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 2nd, 2015, 06:29   #2
imurrx
Veteran Member
 
imurrx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: People's Republic of Massachusetts
Fuel Economy: 36.7
Default

I think TDI vastly outnumber Darts.
__________________
imurrx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 2nd, 2015, 06:31   #3
ChemMan
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Earth
Default

The fleet average (often call "max emission" or "legal limit") is 0.07 g/mi. This is the same as Tier2Bin5 full lifespan (10 year 120K miles) limit. Using zero prefixed decimal places drives me crazy so I will write everything in mg/mi. The vehicles in your list range from 13 mg/mi to 20 mg/mi. The max fleet average is 70 mg/mi (Tier2Bin5) and the absolute limit per vehicle is 200 mg/mi (Tier2Bin8). In the WVU study the Jetta was tested on 8 road tests involving urban, rural, and hwy conditions. The emissions ranged from 614 mg/mi to 1480 mg/mi. Across all 8 road tests the mileage weighted average would be 1084 mg/mi.

Understand however that only three vehicles were tested in the WVU study, a 2012 Jetta, a 2013 Passat, and a 2012 BMW X5. The WVU study blew the whistle and subsequently the EPA widened the investigation to in include your Golf but we don't know what the emissions of the Golf are. The EPA hasn't released the details of their findings (and they won't as this is an ongoing investigation).

Still you shouldn't really compare diesel vehicles to gas vehicles and look at only NOx. Gas vehicles generally don't have any significant NOx emissions. They tend to operate at a lower temp which means less NOx production and then they have the highly efficient 3-way cat (>99% reduction in NOx). On the other hand gas vehicles tend to have more CO and more unburned hydrocarbons (NMOG). Diesel vehicles tend to have more NOx and more PM (particulate). So for a more apples to apples comparison I would compare it to other diesel vehicles.

Lastly CO2 is directly related to fuel consumption. When comparing between two fuels keep in mind that 1 gallon of diesel has 13% more carbon. So 40 mpg gas ~= 45 mpg diesel in terms of CO2 output. As a side note the EPA mpg rating is calculated based on the weight of the CO2 which is emitted. If you run a vehicle and capture the exhaust and the CO2 in the exhaust weighs 10.15 kg then you have burned 1 gallon of diesel. Yes technically fuel isn't completely burned (NMOG, particulate, CO, HCHO, etc) so one should really measure and weigh all those and compute what portion came from the atmosphere. As a practical matter those non-CO2 outputs are a rounding error <0.1%. So the weight of the carbon in CO2 = weight of carbon in the fuel.

Last edited by ChemMan; October 2nd, 2015 at 07:02.
ChemMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 2nd, 2015, 06:34   #4
ChemMan
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Earth
Default

Also nice find. I had been looking for this for years. I hate using websites and would prefer the raw data.
ChemMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 2nd, 2015, 08:26   #5
amstel78
Veteran Member
 
amstel78's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Shohola, PA
Default

Now compare those findings against heavy duty vehicle emissions and you'll see that our TDI's are still very tame in comparison.

http://www3.epa.gov/otaq/consumer/420f08027.pdf
__________________
-James

Gone but not forgotten: 2005 E46 M3 | 2006 Evo IX MR | 1985 W123 300D | 2012 Golf TDI
amstel78 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 2nd, 2015, 09:52   #6
DRotblatt
Newbie
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Los Angeles
Default

ChemMan, thanks! I looked hard for a week before I happened on that data. I really wanted to know how the NOx from my car compared to others on the road (gas or diesel) and all I could find was mention of the .05 g/mile (or 50 mg/mile) MAXIMUM amount, not actual figures and no comparison with other cars. I didn't look at CO or HC because VW didn't lie about that...thus it falls under EPA amounts. The only figures for HC in the EPA data is; HC-NM+NOX, which is a calculation that includes NOx, thus would be invalid for the Jetta Diesel (the only VW diesel that was tested in 2015). Lastly, the actual figures for NOx for gas and diesel are not too much different since they all are trying to meet similar EPA standards. Here's some diesels:

Ram 1500: NOx=.024
BMW X3 xDrive 28d: NOx=.008
BMW 740Ld: NOx=.015 CO=.05

amstel: I hope that's tongue in cheek....but as it turns out, the figures from the data are much lower then your link indicates. According to EPA data, the Dodge Ram 3500 (first large pickup I found in the data...and it's a diesel) is putting out .17 g/mile NOx (but lots more carbon). I also found a Ram 3500 Promaster gas model (a van)...that was .03 g/mile NOx. That means at 15X I'd still be putting out the same as 3 Ram 3500's, or 25 giant Ram Promaster Vans. Not feeling the love here
__________________
Dan
2015 Golf Sportswagen TDI
1995 Eurovan EVC

Last edited by DRotblatt; October 2nd, 2015 at 09:53. Reason: formatting
DRotblatt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 2nd, 2015, 10:05   #7
amstel78
Veteran Member
 
amstel78's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Shohola, PA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DRotblatt View Post
amstel: I hope that's tongue in cheek....but as it turns out, the figures from the data are much lower then your link indicates. According to EPA data, the Dodge Ram 3500 (first large pickup I found in the data...and it's a diesel) is putting out .17 g/mile NOx (but lots more carbon). I also found a Ram 3500 Promaster gas model (a van)...that was .03 g/mile NOx. That means at 15X I'd still be putting out the same as 3 Ram 3500's, or 25 giant Ram Promaster Vans. Not feeling the love here
No, not tongue in cheek. I intended to show a comparison between the data you found and the EPA averages for large commercial vehicles, such as 18-wheeled tractor trailers. FWIW, there are a whole lot more commercial diesels on the road in the USA than there are VW TDIs. For instance, the lowest weight category tested by the EPA (IIb or vehicles over 8500lbs) show an average NOx emission rate of 3.08g/mile. That is significant.

OTOH, the comparison you make between our cars and the newest Dodge RAMs with Cummins engines seem a bit unfair; those trucks have DPF units, NOx catalysts, and UREA injection systems. Out of curiosity though, I'd like to know what the emissions readings are from the same RAM 3500 towing a fully laden 18,000lb gooseneck. I'm fairly certain the NOx emissions won't be so low.
__________________
-James

Gone but not forgotten: 2005 E46 M3 | 2006 Evo IX MR | 1985 W123 300D | 2012 Golf TDI
amstel78 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 2nd, 2015, 12:19   #8
crazyrunner33
Veteran Member
 
crazyrunner33's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Charlotte, NC
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by amstel78 View Post
No, not tongue in cheek. I intended to show a comparison between the data you found and the EPA averages for large commercial vehicles, such as 18-wheeled tractor trailers. FWIW, there are a whole lot more commercial diesels on the road in the USA than there are VW TDIs. For instance, the lowest weight category tested by the EPA (IIb or vehicles over 8500lbs) show an average NOx emission rate of 3.08g/mile. That is significant.

OTOH, the comparison you make between our cars and the newest Dodge RAMs with Cummins engines seem a bit unfair; those trucks have DPF units, NOx catalysts, and UREA injection systems. Out of curiosity though, I'd like to know what the emissions readings are from the same RAM 3500 towing a fully laden 18,000lb gooseneck. I'm fairly certain the NOx emissions won't be so low.
Given my experiences from towing and driving an unloaded 2014 RAM with urea, I wouldn't be surprised if the NOx remained low. Thanks to the urea, EGR isn't used much when unloaded, the fuel economy matches or exceeds my '97. However, when towing it will drink the urea pretty heavily, around 3-5 gallons when towing a thousand miles. Plus, the fuel economy takes a huge hit when compared to the 12 valve towing the same trailer. I assume that EGR is being used more along with a reduction in timing and the high urea consumption to keep NOx in check. Again, these are assumptions, I'd like to see if there's data to back it up.
__________________
'06 Jetta DSG: GTB1749VC, PD150 injectors, Malone tune, and some other stuff and things
'97 Cummins: It looks stock, does that count?
crazyrunner33 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 2nd, 2015, 12:53   #9
DRotblatt
Newbie
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Los Angeles
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by amstel78 View Post
OTOH, the comparison you make between our cars and the newest Dodge RAMs with Cummins engines seem a bit unfair; those trucks have DPF units, NOx catalysts, and UREA injection systems.
My interest is the pollution of my car...a brand new 2015 Sportswagen with the Urea injection system. Further, one of the cars in the West Virginia study was a Passat with Urea injection - and it failed miserably. Just because I'm putting out less NOx then a big rig or tractor does not make me feel better - I just can't use that rationalization.
__________________
Dan
2015 Golf Sportswagen TDI
1995 Eurovan EVC
DRotblatt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 2nd, 2015, 16:15   #10
Jedadiah
Veteran Member
 
Jedadiah's Avatar
Default

Your GSW has an EA 288 which wasn't tested by WVU. Both cars were EA 189. In Europe, the EA 288 aren't being recalled at all, just the older cars. At least WV is pretty sure your car meets The Euro standard.

More than 50% of cars in Germay are diesels and very many are EA 189 VW's. People aren't dying, choking to death on Nox in the streets. Our 1% diesel rate isn't really hurting anything.
Jedadiah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 3rd, 2015, 00:20   #11
DRotblatt
Newbie
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Los Angeles
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jedadiah View Post
Your GSW has an EA 288 which wasn't tested by WVU. Both cars were EA 189. In Europe, the EA 288 aren't being recalled at all, just the older cars. At least WV is pretty sure your car meets The Euro standard.
I think that's the most optimistic scenario, and the one I'm hoping for. My hypothesis (in my optimistic moments) is that in 2013 VW knew the jig was up, and started developing the EA 288 to replace the EA 189 and phase out the fraudulent software...keeping it in the first year 2015 so if they needed to they could tweak the emissions with a software 'fix' if it didn't meet standards. In 2016 they left out the software.

To back this up, on the site vwdieselinfo.com they stated in the FAQ that they felt the MY2016 cars met EPA standard...but that verbiage has been dropped in the past day or so. Now they just say they are working with authorities to fix the problem. This leads me to believe that my best guess hypothesis may not be right. I hope you are correct about their meeting standards in Europe at least.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jedadiah View Post
More than 50% of cars in Germay are diesels and very many are EA 189 VW's. People aren't dying, choking to death on Nox in the streets. Our 1% diesel rate isn't really hurting anything.
Dramatizing to make a point makes rationalization easy, but doesn't work for me, and isn't true. The slight increase in NOx will have a slight effect, but in a city of almost 20 million, that could be thousands of people that are effected with increased health ailments. I remember when the smog in this city was so bad the air looked like something out of a apocalyptic Sci Fi movie, we had to stay indoors on bad smog days. It's an increase in standards and regulations that have changed that...after all, corporations won't on their own (case in point VW), and from what I read on this forum neither will many individuals. I was tired of being part of the problem, and thought I would be doing less harm with this car.
__________________
Dan
2015 Golf Sportswagen TDI
1995 Eurovan EVC
DRotblatt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 3rd, 2015, 08:03   #12
piotrsko
Veteran Member
 
piotrsko's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Reno Nv
Fuel Economy: 46 city/56 hwy so far wonder what the Golf gets
Default

you Are making a difference in driving your car. It IS more efficient, therefore less polluting by definition.

Last edited by piotrsko; October 3rd, 2015 at 08:15.
piotrsko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 3rd, 2015, 08:21   #13
RalphVa
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Virginia
TDI(s): Jetta
Default

I wonder if anyone has taken a look at diesel's NOx total from crude to highway and COx vs. a gasoline engine's. I'll bet diesel still takes a lot less refining than gasoline.

Ralph
__________________
Ralph
The natural gardener
God's original intent
RalphVa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 3rd, 2015, 09:44   #14
wxman
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: East TN, USA
TDI(s): Other Diesel
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RalphVa View Post
I wonder if anyone has taken a look at diesel's NOx total from crude to highway and COx vs. a gasoline engine's. I'll bet diesel still takes a lot less refining than gasoline.
Ralph
The upstream emissions of gasoline is nearly twice as much as diesel with respect to NMOG/VOC+NOx.





Of course, the vehicle operations emissions are now much higher for the tdi, but the upstream emissions are much lower.
wxman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 4th, 2015, 12:26   #15
donallen
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Massachusetts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by piotrsko View Post
you Are making a difference in driving your car. It IS more efficient, therefore less polluting by definition.
No, not "less polluting by definition". There are a variety of pollutants. NOx is one, CO2 is another. They both do harm in different ways. The TDI was sold to us as having low rates of emissions of both. The CO2 story was true, because CO2 emissions are inversely proportional to fuel efficiency. But the NOx story was grossly fraudulent. The TDIs emit far too much NOx pollution on the road. Despite the EPA bashers on these forums, there's a damned good reason for the emissions standards in this country. They were designed by medical people who know what they are doing and know the research, unlike the know-nothings posting here.
donallen is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
TxDot says Biodiesel raises NOx Emissions aab777 Alternative Diesel Fuels (Biodiesel, WVO, SVO, BTL, GTL etc) 8 February 14th, 2004 02:03
Actual NOx emissions for various TDI engines? tjl TDI (Diesel) Emissions 1 January 29th, 2003 10:42
hard numbers for NOx emissions jdonsbach TDI (Diesel) Emissions 2 May 25th, 2002 19:54
NOx emissions and 205 injectors Ted_Grozier TDI (Diesel) Emissions 13 May 23rd, 2002 18:32
Biodiesel NOx Emissions Joe Rappa TDI (Diesel) Emissions 32 September 4th, 2001 12:06


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 17:07.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright - TDIClub Online LTD - 2017
Contact Us | Privacy Statement | Forum Rules | Disclaimer
TDIClub Online Ltd (TDIClub.com) is not affiliated with the VWoA or VWAG and is supported by contributions from viewers like you.
1996 - 2017, All Rights Reserved
Page generated in 0.19196 seconds with 10 queries
[Output: 137.83 Kb. compressed to 116.14 Kb. by saving 21.69 Kb. (15.74%)]