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General Automotive General automotive discussion. This is intended to be a discussion about other not VW and Diesel cars you may have or interested in.

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Old September 27th, 2015, 11:35   #61
nwdiver
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Originally Posted by gulfcoastguy View Post
That might be nice if you happen to liven the area that fast chargers are currently installed and if they'll swap out a $25,000.00 VW for a $80,000.00 Tesla. In my case one isn't true and the other is as likely as my drowning in unicorn tears.
3 years ago there were 6 supercharger locations... now there are >500. No doubt there are many coming to locations convenient to all your travel needs. The Model 3 will be out in ~3 years and cost ~$35k... <$20k when compared to the 10 year O&M cost of ICE.
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Old September 27th, 2015, 11:53   #62
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I wish there was a free 1 month EV loaner program... you would quickly realize 1) How much range you DON'T need 2) How awesome it is to leave home every day with plenty of juice.
When I did road trips with my Jetta I was a habitual hyper-miler. My record was 800 miles on a single tank but my bladder and stomach can't last 800 miles. I make the same stops I did in my Jetta but instead of just eating & resting now I eat, rest and charge. When your car can charge at ~135kW or ~400mph your car is usually ready to go before you are.
My commute to my job is 12 miles round trip (A Leaf would be perfect), but I also drive 80 miles each way once a week and 300 miles each way once a month for medical frivolity. A Leaf can't get me to Baton Rouge and back (I wouldn't have the range to sit in the never ending traffic before getting to the hospital, and even if it did. it won't recharge in time for me to return home after treatment) and a Tesla can barely get me to the medical center in Houston, but can't get me to their supercharging station before it dies even before taking traffic in account. And even if I get there, who's to say there isn't a line to charge?

There's plenty of people where a Leaf would be just fine, but there's also plenty of people where an electric car isn't feasible no matter how you try to spin it. Even further, unless you like bread and water diets, a Tesla is simply economically infeasible for large swaths of the US population--the ones who drive the dirtiest cars emissions-wise. I live in a relatively affluent area of Louisiana, but our median income is still $20k under the national average. Like I said above, you pull into our school's parking lot during drop off/pick up times, and my TDi is the least of a pollution-sniffer's concerns when there's plenty of 20 year-old cars without mufflers blowing visible smoke out their exhaust idling away. If you want to put a real dent in the total emissions of cars on the road, you need to get clean cars at a price point where people who have cars that pollute can swap them for clean cars as well as convincing them that the cars they are getting are the equal or better of the cars they are trading in. Volkswagen was kinda-sorta there with their stripper TDi Golfs and Jettas, but didn't have the market penetration to make it happen. Then this whole emissions scandal hit and we're back to square one.
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Old September 27th, 2015, 11:59   #63
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My commute to my job is 12 miles round trip (A Leaf would be perfect), but I also drive 80 miles each way once a week and 300 miles each way once a month for medical frivolity. A Leaf can't get me to Baton Rouge and back (I wouldn't have the range to sit in the never ending traffic before getting to the hospital, and even if it did. it won't recharge in time for me to return home after treatment).....

Actually the more traffic you have, the better it is for range... assuming you know how to drive an EV properly
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Old September 27th, 2015, 12:05   #64
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3 years ago there were 6 supercharger locations... now there are >500.
There are 168,000 gas stations.... and diesel can still be hard to find off the beaten path.

Good luck outside of anything but the most concentrated and wealthy counties in the US. I'd be surprised if you could stop for lunch and fill up with free energy outside of a dozen US counties, and even then you'd have to look hard.

A world of free energy and an affordable all - electric sport wagon capable of hauling a family of four to the backwoods for a week with all their gear is never going to happen. Free energy and heavily subsidized purchases will be turned off long before the average family gets anywhere near to using it.
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Old September 27th, 2015, 12:15   #65
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There are 168,000 gas stations.... and diesel can still be hard to find off the beaten path.

Good luck outside of anything but the most concentrated and wealthy counties in the US. I'd be surprised if you could stop for lunch and fill up with free energy outside of a dozen US counties, and even then you'd have to look hard.

A world of free energy and an affordable all - electric sport wagon capable of hauling a family of four to the backwoods for a week with all their gear is never going to happen. Free energy and heavily subsidized purchases will be turned off long before the average family gets anywhere near to using it.
You sound as if you know more than Mr. Musk - please let him know about your predictions. Progress, it's a b*tch sometimes..
Put your zip in and see all the types of charging stations available now - by the time the Model 3 arrives there will many more. As more Teslas are sold, more charging stations will appear, some will cost $.
http://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger

Also - don't forget - oil is heavily subsidized by our military budget...
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Old September 27th, 2015, 12:25   #66
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Actually the more traffic you have, the better it is for range... assuming you know how to drive an EV properly
How much impact does the heater have on range? Thinking about sitting in traffic during a New England winter. We were below 0f last year.

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Old September 27th, 2015, 12:27   #67
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Actually the more traffic you have, the better it is for range... assuming you know how to drive an EV properly
It depends. I owned a Prius and like an EV it excels in stop-and-go traffic, but living in humid subtropical hell means that climate control eats into the overall charge while you're sitting in traffic, though I don't get the energy loss from cold weather. I tracked my fuel usage and saw a noticeable decline in performance in the summer months when climate control was used the most--and I didn't even keep it cold in my car. So when it comes down to economics, do I get a Leaf that I can only use for about 25% of my weekly mileage, a TDi that is bigger, more versatile, but emits pollutants, or go into auto poverty and get a Tesla that still isn't guaranteed to get me where I need to go? For myself and the vast majority of Americans who do not live on either coast, Chicago, Houston, or D/FW, an electric car is not a real option.

I guess I'm just an idiot who doesn't see the obvious advantage of driving a tiny electric car to places where I arrive on the last couple of electrons and hope they can get me to a charging station so I can sit and wait for it to change before I can try to get back home with a couple of electrons to spare. Electric vehicles are most likely the future, but that future is still a generation away no matter how many TED Talks Elon Musk et al may give.
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Old September 27th, 2015, 12:29   #68
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My commute to my job is 12 miles round trip (A Leaf would be perfect), but I also drive 80 miles each way once a week and 300 miles each way once a month for medical frivolity. A Leaf can't get me to Baton Rouge and back (I wouldn't have the range to sit in the never ending traffic before getting to the hospital, and even if it did. it won't recharge in time for me to return home after treatment) and a Tesla can barely get me to the medical center in Houston, but can't get me to their supercharging station before it dies even before taking traffic in account. And even if I get there, who's to say there isn't a line to charge?
It's called the Volt. It's not for everyone, but it works great for me. I use it for my work commute and for running around, all on EV, but I can also go down to the shore or drive to my brother's place in VA, without any range anxiety.
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Old September 27th, 2015, 12:32   #69
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You sound as if you know more than Mr. Musk - please let him know about your predictions. Progress, it's a b*tch sometimes..
Put your zip in and see all the types of charging stations available now ...
I never mentioned Musk, I pointed out that 500 outlets is a fraction of the 168,000 filling stations.

I also pointed out that although it's easy to give free energy to a few wealthy individuals in concentrated areas driving cars subsidized by the "people", it's not possible (see - "TANSTAAFL" ) to scale that up so that the little people would also get free energy and cars below cost.

Having said that, when exactly do you believe a family of four could afford to buy an all - electric sport wagon, fill it to the brim with weight and then spend a week in the backwoods anywhere?
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Old September 27th, 2015, 12:50   #70
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You know, if Elon Musk can give us a vehicle that costs in the range of $18,000 to 30,000, and has performance characteristics to our TDI INCLUDING the quick recharge and range capabilities, I'd be interested. That's not happening right now and will take a long time to achieve. I don't fly distances of between 200-700 miles, I have to drive. Nice car, don't get me wrong, but a Tesla doesn't do it for me. Just my two cents.
Elon Musk is not going to give you these things, at least it won't happen in his lifetime. EVs cannot achieve the range of an ICE vehicle, because they can't store the energy in an efficient capacity /weight ration. An 8-pound gallon of gas or diesel has a huge amount of energy in comparison. As much discussion and blithering that's going around right now, you can probably find a direct comparison about how much the batteries would weigh to power an EV the 750+ miles my Passat will go on a tank of ULSD (Hint: the weight would exceed the GVW of any reasonably sized passenger vehicle.)
As a commuter vehicle that is charged nightly at home, there's a perfectly reasonable EV out there right now, IF the buyer is willing to accept its limitations*. It's called the Nissan Leaf, and they aren't exactly selling like hotcakes.....

*A round-trip commute of maybe 50 miles with a side trip of 10 miles or so, plus a decent safety margin. In warm weather. Driving in a moderate manner. In cold weather, when that same battery has to heat the car, or if you stomp on it, there goes that safety margin. The point is that EVs, as they exist today, are not Elon Musk or anyone else's magic carpet that's going to cure all our transportation woes.
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Old September 27th, 2015, 13:03   #71
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It's a tax credit, not a rebate, so nobody has to "pay" it, people who buy the car just pay less in taxes that year. The electricity is going to be 5x-10x cheaper than gas or diesel depending on your electric utility and rate plan, so it does add up pretty quickly.

The treasury is $7500 more in the hole, just as if they paid it out. It's not free.

Plus there is a free ride on the roads as you are not paying fuel tax, which goes toward road construction and maintenance.
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Old September 27th, 2015, 13:05   #72
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I never mentioned Musk, I pointed out that 500 outlets is a fraction of the 168,000 filling stations.

I also pointed out that although it's easy to give free energy to a few wealthy individuals in concentrated areas driving cars subsidized by the "people", it's not possible (see - "TANSTAAFL" ) to scale that up so that the little people would also get free energy and cars below cost.

Having said that, when exactly do you believe a family of four could afford to buy an all - electric sport wagon, fill it to the brim with weight and then spend a week in the backwoods anywhere?
Trips to the backwoods don't happen that often - kind of like adding a room to the house for that yearly family get together. I'm sure you could rent a gasser for outings. The trick is to get enough solar charging - this will happen. Also don't forget - our oil supply is heavily subsidized. Also - we received tax credits for our clean diesels.
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Old September 27th, 2015, 13:09   #73
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Put your zip in and see all the types of charging stations available now - by the time the Model 3 arrives there will many more..

Curious, I put in a wealthy central Chicago zip. Here's the link. Chicago is the third largest city in the US and even here you'd spend half your day trudging to find a plug.

That's far, far worse than I would have imagined possible given that I see Tesla's in my area every day.
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Old September 27th, 2015, 13:12   #74
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How much impact does the heater have on range? Thinking about sitting in traffic during a New England winter. We were below 0f last year.
Shawn
Negligible. They are very popular in Norway which isn't exactly known for its balmy summers. Moving a 4000lbs vehicle takes quite a bit of electrical power. Everything else is pretty minor compared to that. The main issue for me is that due to popularity the entire first year of production will probably sell out before the first vehicle is produced or reviewed. I have a lot of faith in Tesla but not enough faith to buy a vehicle blind.
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Old September 27th, 2015, 13:15   #75
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Curious, I put in a wealthy central Chicago zip. Here's the link. Chicago is the third largest city in the US and even here you'd spend half your day trudging to find a plug.

That's far, far worse than I would have imagined possible given that I see Tesla's in my area every day.
Nobody (well except people with more time than sense) uses a supercharger for day to day driving. You have a 280 mile range. You leave home charged, drive all day, come home, plug it in. When your power rates are the lowest (usually around midnight) is recharges and the next morning you have full power again.

Most of the superchargers are off the highways when you need to travel >280 miles in one day. Having a charger in your neighborhood would be pointless, you already have a charger in your house.
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