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General Automotive General automotive discussion. This is intended to be a discussion about other not VW and Diesel cars you may have or interested in.

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Old September 26th, 2015, 19:33   #46
bubbagumpshrimp
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Originally Posted by peiphil View Post
I live in Canada
Can you picture me in a snow storm with an electric car?
What keeps the heater going?
Battery goes dead no heat get out and walk in a blizzard only to get hit by a snowplow
The EPA (smoke police ) guys travel how?
In a jet that's leaving that trail of soot that they I guess cant check or a free electric car they can drive for an hour or so at a time
Do they check the exhaust on powerplant chimneys?
Are these not what recharges these cars?
What about the fuel tax to maintain roads bridges etc.
Will I have to pay road tax on my next light bill?
The EPA would say "Well then..a Prius would be perfect for you!"
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Old September 26th, 2015, 19:37   #47
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In any case, NOx is a local air pollution concern (yes, wind can move it, but it's still not THAT big of a deal), so even if an EV ends up putting out a lot more of it, it's not being spewed in a population area, and therefore doesn't really matter that much.

Also, if there's night-time charging, NOx doesn't really do much with smog formation without sunlight.
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Old September 26th, 2015, 19:37   #48
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Looks like the NOx from electric generation is dropping.. from the 2005 link you posted. That's good news.

But still this .218g/mile is 3x over 0.07 g/mile. Why no uproar, how is good in relation to the standard?
There is no uproar because few people care. Just as few TDI owners care.

If your question is why are cars regulated tighter than power plants, then the non-poliitical answer is that cars tend to congregate in cities. My car and I do not live in a city, but I understand EPA not giving a waiver to anybody who thinks their neighborhood can tolerate more smog.
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Old September 26th, 2015, 19:43   #49
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Thank you! I found that same error a little while ago. I followed up with what I think is a correct calculation later. Somewhere in the range of 200 mg/mile for an EV charging off an 'average US grid.'

I knew the grid is dirty (and particularly so in my locale,) but you know something is way wrong when cars are cleaner than a central power facility. I wish I could do more at home. I'm limited by being in a rental.
Yes I saw it with the 2010 figures - I concur with that calc. But this still makes the avg US EV 3x over the NOx standard of 70mg/mile.

Its this sort of figure that makes the EPA hypocritical. The push for EV as clean when in fact its worse than gassers (if those comply). In certain places like NYC and Calif, where they clearly use power from lower NOx plants they get close.

People running away to EV and plug in as the solution - well, it might be better than the LNT, and perhaps the SCR, but its over standard.
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Old September 26th, 2015, 19:51   #50
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In certain places like NYC and Calif, where they clearly use power from lower NOx plants they get close.
More than close.

California in 2010 NOx is 185 mg/kWh, or right about 70 mg/mile (equivalent.) It is lower now, and will continue to fall as CA approaches 33% renewables by 2020 and upgrades the NG power to combined cycle.
So from a CA perspective the car standard makes some sense. And where CA leads in air and car pollution regulation, the nation follows

Last edited by SageBrush; September 26th, 2015 at 19:57.
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Old September 26th, 2015, 20:04   #51
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I wonder how a college age family with four EV would charge at night? Since the power plants would be in full capacity mode all night long fossil fuel would have to be producing electricity. Wind less at night and solar is well...I just wonder about the net energy needed.
Who says you have to charge at home at night? Charge during the day at your place of business utilizing chargers in the parking garage or lot. As the EV market grows, so will the charging infrastructure. Expect to see a lot of solar panels in parking lots - perhaps even shading your car while you're inside.
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Old September 26th, 2015, 20:09   #52
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Originally Posted by peiphil View Post
I live in Canada
Can you picture me in a snow storm with an electric car?
What keeps the heater going?
Not sure what you are talking about, Norway is one of Tesla's biggest markets because of their EV incentives, and they perform very well there, yes even in snow storms.
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Old September 26th, 2015, 20:13   #53
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Who says you have to charge at home at night? Charge during the day at your place of business utilizing chargers in the parking garage or lot. As the EV market grows, so will the charging infrastructure. Expect to see a lot of solar panels in parking lots - perhaps even shading your car while you're inside.
Yep.

I never see people "concerned" about the effect of EVs on the grid wonder how Air Conditioners are supported. Or electric water heaters.

Last edited by SageBrush; September 26th, 2015 at 20:15.
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Old September 26th, 2015, 20:18   #54
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More than close.

California in 2010 NOx is 185 mg/kWh, or right about 70 mg/mile (equivalent.) It is lower now, and will continue to fall as CA approaches 33% renewables by 2020 and upgrades the NG power to combined cycle.
So from a CA perspective the car standard makes some sense. And where CA leads in air and car pollution regulation, the nation follows
Agreed. In CA and NYC, the EV makes a good deal of sense, and since power in generated locally, they also are in standard so to speak.

I still find the multi-state data in the WVU report highly interesting (along with the X5). The Passat had a number of NOx readings well under the spec in the steady speed hiway section. And on the whole the numbers came in around 5-6x spec. But the WVU report does not give enough data to truly calculate a proper g/mile avg. You can only equally weight each segment of the reported data. No miles or Kms are given.
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Old September 26th, 2015, 20:32   #55
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Originally Posted by SageBrush View Post
There is no uproar because few people care. Just as few TDI owners care.
If your question is why are cars regulated tighter than power plants, then the non-poliitical answer is that cars tend to congregate in cities. My car and I do not live in a city, but I understand EPA not giving a waiver to anybody who thinks their neighborhood can tolerate more smog.
The problem with this line of thinking is it still allows for the spewing of pollution just somewhere else. If we really want clean air, shouldn't it be clean everywhere and not just in cities?

There's an article out there floating around about just how awful EVs and plug-in hybrids are for air pollution in certain states due to the coal fired power they use. It basically says that unless you live in LA or NYC you're spewing far more pollution via the smokestack in another community than you would be at the tailpipe of a conventional gasser.

To me, we either need to recognize that most of the US isn't going to be suffering because of this egregious VW behavior or that everyone is and a stop sale on EVs and plug-in hybrids needs to be next in 46 of the 50 US states.
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Old September 26th, 2015, 20:37   #56
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Agreed. In CA and NYC, the EV makes a good deal of sense, and since power in generated locally, they also are in standard so to speak.
The standard you speak of is maximum allowable in a car.

Of my two cars,
One emits 10 mg/mile Nox
The other emits no more than 70 mg/mile

Pretty typical perhaps -- spanning T2B3 to T2B5
So in a gross sense EVs do not compete very well with clean cars overall, but this goes back to CARB trying to clean up the air for city dwellers.
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Old September 26th, 2015, 20:38   #57
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Also, if there's night-time charging, NOx doesn't really do much with smog formation without sunlight.
So Seattle won't have much of a problem?
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Old September 26th, 2015, 20:46   #58
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The problem with this line of thinking is it still allows for the spewing of pollution just somewhere else. If we really want clean air, shouldn't it be clean everywhere and not just in cities?
I'm all in favor of strict NOx emissions everywhere, but I think your reasoning is flawed as stated. Cities have a high density of people and cars. They cannot be reasonably compared to a rural setting.

The average is just not a useful metric in this discussion.

It is like the discussion earlier about a line of cars waiting to pick up school-kids. That local air is a lot dirtier than the suburbs where the kids live and it deserves its own consideration.
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Old September 27th, 2015, 12:19   #59
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You know, if Elon Musk can give us a vehicle that costs in the range of $18,000 to 30,000, and has performance characteristics to our TDI INCLUDING the quick recharge and range capabilities, I'd be interested. That's not happening right now and will take a long time to achieve. I don't fly distances of between 200-700 miles, I have to drive. Nice car, don't get me wrong, but a Tesla doesn't do it for me. Just my two cents.
I wish there was a free 1 month EV loaner program... you would quickly realize 1) How much range you DON'T need 2) How awesome it is to leave home every day with plenty of juice.

When I did road trips with my Jetta I was a habitual hyper-miler. My record was 800 miles on a single tank but my bladder and stomach can't last 800 miles. I make the same stops I did in my Jetta but instead of just eating & resting now I eat, rest and charge. When your car can charge at ~135kW or ~400mph your car is usually ready to go before you are.
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Old September 27th, 2015, 12:26   #60
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I wish there was a free 1 month EV loaner program... you would quickly realize 1) How much range you DON'T need 2) How awesome it is to leave home every day with plenty of juice.
When I did road trips with my Jetta I was a habitual hyper-miler. My record was 800 miles on a single tank but my bladder and stomach can't last 800 miles. I make the same stops I did in my Jetta but instead of just eating & resting now I eat, rest and charge. When your car can charge at ~135kW or ~400mph your car is usually ready to go before you are.
That might be nice if you happen to liven the area that fast chargers are currently installed and if they'll swap out a $25,000.00 VW for a $80,000.00 Tesla. In my case one isn't true and the other is as likely as my drowning in unicorn tears.
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