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General Automotive General automotive discussion. This is intended to be a discussion about other not VW and Diesel cars you may have or interested in.

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Old February 19th, 2018, 13:56   #4276
TDIMeister
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Let's get down to the crux of comparing emissions OTHER THAN CO2 between a genset and a car.

A Tier-4 large genset of >560 kW (which may be fuelled not only with Diesel but also natural gas, etc.), is permitted 0.19 g/kWh NMHC (non-methane hydrocarbons), 0.67 g/kWh NOx and 0.03 g/kWh PM.
Source: Table 4, https://dieselnet.com/standards/us/nonroad.php#tier4

A T2B5 car is permitted 0.075 g/mile NMOG (non-methane organic gases * for diesel fueled vehicle, NMOG (non-methane organic gases) means NMHC (non-methane hydrocarbons), 0.05 g/mile NOx and 0.01 g/mile PM.
Source: Table 2, https://dieselnet.com/standards/us/ld_t2.php#bins

How do we convert kWh to miles? Normally, it is impossible to convert the two, but we have a clue that the Tesla used 18 kWh to cover 104.6 km / 65 miles. It is reasonable to assume that 18 kW is the energy to propel the 2.2 ton Tesla over the road course, not taking into account round-trip energy losses through the battery and power electronics, as well as any recovered from regenerative braking. So, it would not be unreasonable to apply the same 18 kWh to the ICE-powered car over the same road course.

Thus, 18 kWh over 65 miles gives 0.2769 kWh/mile.

Now, if we go back to the emissions limits above, we apply this factor to the genset:
0.19 g/kWh NMHC * 0.2769 kWh/mile = 0.0526 g/mile
0.67 g/kWh NOx * 0.2769 kWh/mile = 0.1855 g/mile
0.03 g/kWh PM * 0.2769 kWh/mile = 0.0083 g/mile.

Compare these again to that of the T2B5 car:
0.075 g/mile NMOG
0.05 g/mile NOx
0.01 g/mile PM.

I purposely chose to present the genset case in the most favourable light possible so that I would not be accused of bias; the latest standard and the largest size (giving the lowest per kWh values). If I were to do the same on a genset of the actual size in the video (30 kVA =~ 30 kWe) and estimated age, the results would show that the genset is in fact over an order of magnitude dirtier in HC+NOx and nearly an order of magnitude dirtier in PM!!!

Edit to add 30 kWeTier-4 (2008) genset emission data:
7.5 g/kWh NMHC+NOx * 0.2769 kWh/mile = 2.077 g/mile vs T2B5 0.125 g/mile NMOG+NOx (16.6X)
0.3 g/kWh PM * 0.2769 kWh/mile = 0.083 g/mile vs T2B5 0.01 g/mile NMOG+NOx (8.3X)
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Old February 19th, 2018, 17:21   #4277
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Charging a tesla or any EV from a diesel genset is clearly far from ideal. It's also got to be pretty uncommon. I can understand how a diesel genset operating at peak thermal efficiency can be more energy efficient at charging an EV than an ICE vehicle operating well below its engines peak thermal efficiency the vast majority of the time. I have a feeling that most Tesla owners in Oz also have a petrol vehicle or two for longer trips and such.
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Old February 19th, 2018, 19:45   #4278
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Originally Posted by kjclow View Post
Unless you live in an area where power outages can last for days. If all you have is your ev, then you’ll have to charge by generator.
With what frequency? I've had one day (in 2 years) that charging by generator almost happened, but the power came back on day 3, and I could have driven another vehicle anyways.

If grid power is that unreliable in your location then I'd consider some solar and batteries to save on liquid fuel.
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Old February 20th, 2018, 05:12   #4279
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I've used my Volt for a genset.
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Old February 20th, 2018, 05:23   #4280
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Originally Posted by El Dobro View Post
I've used my Volt for a genset.
My '97 Passat TDI ran at high idle in my sister's driveway for THREE DAYS one time when her power went out due to a massive storm.

I just used VCDS to crank the idle speed up to around 1400 RPMs, had an inverter hooked to the battery with the hood propped up. Never missed a beat, ran non stop the whole time. Left a little black soot print in their driveway under the tailpipes.

Funny story about electricity:

When I finally got to bring my son home from the hospital after 18 months, the gal that was helping us get transitioned into home care for him gave my wife a tip. When my wife asked how long the battery lasted in his feed pump (he had a G-J button) as well as his Broviak pump, since the power would frequently go out at our house, she was told to call the electric company and tell them to put us on a priority list. Never heard of such a thing, never knew it existed. But, my wife did call, and there is such a thing, and we had to get some letter from a doctor or whatever as "proof" of a medical condition in which electricity was a priority.

The very next week, no kidding, there were about 20 trucks from the electric company doing a bunch of work near our house at a substation, a bunch of new poles were put in within a mile of my house (not down my road in particular), and since then, our power has been out a total of once. And that was several years ago. Used to go out once or twice a month, and during stormy weather it was ALWAYS going in and out.

Do not know if it was coincidence, do not know if our call put stuff that was slated to be updated on a fast track and got bumped to the top of the list, but something changed.
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Old February 20th, 2018, 06:20   #4281
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That's pretty darn good what they did to help with your son's conditions. My brother was on home dialysis and since the electricity was bad in his area, he wound up having a Generac back-up generator installed.

I'm in a somewhat urban area, so the Volt works out when necessary. Like the Prius PiP I used when Sandy hit us, the ICE turns on to charge the battery, then shuts down. The funny part was the neighbors watching me, trying to figure out what I was doing with the car.
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Old February 20th, 2018, 07:48   #4282
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TDIMeister View Post
Let's get down to the crux of comparing emissions OTHER THAN CO2 between a genset and a car.

A Tier-4 large genset of >560 kW (which may be fuelled not only with Diesel but also natural gas, etc.), is permitted 0.19 g/kWh NMHC (non-methane hydrocarbons), 0.67 g/kWh NOx and 0.03 g/kWh PM.
Source: Table 4, https://dieselnet.com/standards/us/nonroad.php#tier4

A T2B5 car is permitted 0.075 g/mile NMOG (non-methane organic gases * for diesel fueled vehicle, NMOG (non-methane organic gases) means NMHC (non-methane hydrocarbons), 0.05 g/mile NOx and 0.01 g/mile PM.
Source: Table 2, https://dieselnet.com/standards/us/ld_t2.php#bins

How do we convert kWh to miles? Normally, it is impossible to convert the two, but we have a clue that the Tesla used 18 kWh to cover 104.6 km / 65 miles. It is reasonable to assume that 18 kW is the energy to propel the 2.2 ton Tesla over the road course, not taking into account round-trip energy losses through the battery and power electronics, as well as any recovered from regenerative braking. So, it would not be unreasonable to apply the same 18 kWh to the ICE-powered car over the same road course.

Thus, 18 kWh over 65 miles gives 0.2769 kWh/mile.

Now, if we go back to the emissions limits above, we apply this factor to the genset:
0.19 g/kWh NMHC * 0.2769 kWh/mile = 0.0526 g/mile
0.67 g/kWh NOx * 0.2769 kWh/mile = 0.1855 g/mile
0.03 g/kWh PM * 0.2769 kWh/mile = 0.0083 g/mile.

Compare these again to that of the T2B5 car:
0.075 g/mile NMOG
0.05 g/mile NOx
0.01 g/mile PM.

I purposely chose to present the genset case in the most favourable light possible so that I would not be accused of bias; the latest standard and the largest size (giving the lowest per kWh values). If I were to do the same on a genset of the actual size in the video (30 kVA =~ 30 kWe) and estimated age, the results would show that the genset is in fact over an order of magnitude dirtier in HC+NOx and nearly an order of magnitude dirtier in PM!!!

Edit to add 30 kWeTier-4 (2008) genset emission data:
7.5 g/kWh NMHC+NOx * 0.2769 kWh/mile = 2.077 g/mile vs T2B5 0.125 g/mile NMOG+NOx (16.6X)
0.3 g/kWh PM * 0.2769 kWh/mile = 0.083 g/mile vs T2B5 0.01 g/mile NMOG+NOx (8.3X)
And that is based on a engine designed to high portability and reliability in that genset, NOT emissions or efficiency. Compare that power generation to a modern natural gas power plant, even with grid losses, and the EV gets a LOT cleaner.
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Old February 20th, 2018, 09:50   #4283
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CraziFuzzy View Post
And that is based on a engine designed to high portability and reliability in that genset, NOT emissions or efficiency. Compare that power generation to a modern natural gas power plant, even with grid losses, and the EV gets a LOT cleaner.
Wxman will be able to give grid-averaged emissions in g/kWh from Argonne's GREET model and EPA's eGRID so that we can do a quantitative comparison rather than unsubstantiated anecdotes.

I'm looking at 2012 data but maybe more recent data is more available to fairly capture the rise in natural gas-fired plants and renewables in the mix.

Edit: Here - http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.p...9&postcount=94
Great post there by wxman!
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Old February 20th, 2018, 10:33   #4284
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This is a good article describing some of the complexities when assessing EV manufacturing related emissions:

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2018...0212-icct.html
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Old February 20th, 2018, 16:21   #4285
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Based on the latest version of the GREET model (GREET_2017), and using the most recent EIA data for U.S. electricity generation mix, the well-to-pump efficiency of electricity is 46.1%. 1,171,169 BTU are required to generated 1,000,000 BTU of electricity at the electric outlet.

ULSD is 81.6% efficient (226,155 BTU to produce 1,000,000 BTU of product to the fuel pump). E10 gasoline is 76.9% efficient (299,811 BTU to produce 1,000,000 BTU of product).
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Old February 20th, 2018, 16:38   #4286
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Arithmetic error, Loren. You need that many BTU over and above that generated, otherwise the efficiencies will be over unity.

Thus,
2,171,169 BTU per 1,000,000 BTU electricity
1,226,155 BTU per 1,000,000 BTU ULSD
1,299,811 BTU per 1,000,000 BTU E10.
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Old February 20th, 2018, 20:01   #4287
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Looks like Tesla is cleaning up in the luxury auto segment across Europe. Probably some anxious execs. in Stuttgart and Wolfsburg these days.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/jalopni...1823163274/amp

https://www.google.com/amp/s/electre...rman-cars/amp/
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Old February 20th, 2018, 23:34   #4288
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turbobrick240 View Post
Looks like Tesla is cleaning up in the luxury auto segment across Europe. Probably some anxious execs. in Stuttgart and Wolfsburg these days.
I don't understand that Jalopnik article claiming that Tesla's Model S outsold the S-Class and 7-series in Germany in 2017.

It didn't.

Actual 2017 new car registration numbers, straight from the KBA:

Tesla Model S: 2,241

Audi A8: 3,966

BMW 7-series: 4,594

Mercedes S-Class: 6,759

...and if you want to compare with cars based on passenger space, not price tag, BMW sold 42,850 5-series and Mercedes 47,845 E-Class.
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Old February 21st, 2018, 06:30   #4289
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TDIMeister View Post
Arithmetic error, Loren. You need that many BTU over and above that generated, otherwise the efficiencies will be over unity.

Thus,
2,171,169 BTU per 1,000,000 BTU electricity
1,226,155 BTU per 1,000,000 BTU ULSD
1,299,811 BTU per 1,000,000 BTU E10.
You're right, David. GREET doesn't include the BTU value of the fuel itself apparently.

Edit: The efficiencies are given as a separate entity in the "Well-to-Pump" output file. The actual energy consumed in producing the fuel/electricity is provided and is over and above the mmBTU of the fuel itself, which needs to be considered in the actual efficiencies. The output file is labeled "Well-to-Pump Energy Consumption, Water Consumption and Emissions: Btu or Gallon or g per mmBtu of Fuel Available at Fuel Station Pumps" in GREET.

Does that make sense?

Last edited by wxman; February 21st, 2018 at 06:49.
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Old February 21st, 2018, 07:29   #4290
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Quote:
Originally Posted by German_1er_diesel View Post
I don't understand that Jalopnik article claiming that Tesla's Model S outsold the S-Class and 7-series in Germany in 2017.
It didn't.
Actual 2017 new car registration numbers, straight from the KBA:
Tesla Model S: 2,241
Audi A8: 3,966
BMW 7-series: 4,594
Mercedes S-Class: 6,759
...and if you want to compare with cars based on passenger space, not price tag, BMW sold 42,850 5-series and Mercedes 47,845 E-Class.
Yeah, I think that was an error. He should have said the model S outsold the 7 series and S-class in Europe, not Germany specifically. Jalopnik writers tend to be pretty sloppy.

I do think comparisons based on price are most appropriate. People buy $100k cars for the prestige as much as anything. The Germans need to stop giving lip service to EV's and start actually producing decent ones in numbers if they don't want to get steam rolled. It's kind of ironic that the most desired luxury cars in Europe are made in America now.

https://carbuzz.com/news/tesla-destr...-own-back-yard

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