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General Automotive General automotive discussion. This is intended to be a discussion about other not VW and Diesel cars you may have or interested in.

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Old September 20th, 2015, 14:48   #16
Mark SF
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Everything, if you want to consider a lifecycle analysis.
Assuming every battery sources from raw materials is a flawed analysis, but the results are not *that* different and certainly no where near 50 grams CO2 per mile.
Table 7. I guess the question is whether 48 is nowhere near to 50.
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Old September 20th, 2015, 14:53   #17
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Everything, if you want to consider a lifecycle analysis.
Assuming every battery sources from raw materials is a flawed analysis, but the results are not *that* different and certainly no where near 50 grams CO2 per mile.

I thought you would complain that the second reference analyzed a PHEV20. I picked it out of personal preference and because the only significant manufacturer of huge battery EVs is opening a factory in NV that will be carbon free.
Carbon free, eh? So the lithium will magically mine itself and transport itself from the mine to the factory?
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Old September 20th, 2015, 14:53   #18
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Thank you for posting some solid numbers!
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Old September 20th, 2015, 14:56   #19
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It's also worth noting that those CO2 numbers for fuels (which come from the EIA) are merely the CO2 produced by burning the fuel, not counting the CO2 embodied in the production of the fuel.
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Old September 20th, 2015, 15:31   #20
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That's why I bought a Volt.
Same here. Volt is the local car (ours never needs to run on gas), and the TDI Passat is our distance car.
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Old September 20th, 2015, 15:39   #21
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Carbon free, eh? So the lithium will magically mine itself and transport itself from the mine to the factory?
Rounded down to carbon free. Look up the relative contribution of mining and then take into account recycling.

Thanks for bringing figure 7 of the UCLA study to my attention. I agree that the range for the battery life cycle contribution is shown as low 40s grams CO2/mile. It does presume a 300 Kg battery manufactured in China, and I am not sure if recycling is considered (although I doubt it.) I'll have to read the study closer and see if those details are clarified.

Sorry for the off-topic posts. I'm happy to continue the discussion in the new thread.
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Old September 20th, 2015, 15:47   #22
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Rounded down to carbon free. Look up the relative contribution of mining and then take into account recycling.

Thanks for bringing figure 7 of the UCLA study to my attention. I agree that the range for the battery life cycle contribution is shown as low 40s grams CO2/mile. It does presume a 300 Kg battery manufactured in China, and I am not sure if recycling is considered (although I doubt it.) I'll have to read the study closer and see if those details are clarified.

Sorry for the off-topic posts. I'm happy to continue the discussion in the new thread.
Really my original point was intended to be that having a TDI for all driving, rather than having an electric car for the commute AND a TDI for the weekends, has to be more environmentally friendly considering the energy that takes to make my "extra" electric car.
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Old September 20th, 2015, 15:47   #23
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OK, I reread the UCLA study of BEV lifetime energy consumption with a focus on the battery and a statement by Mike SF in the VW cheater thread that battery manufacture costs 50 grams CO2 per mile over the expected life of the car.

Figure 7 is a range that allows for different battery lives. The median is 120k miles which I accept, so that study finds 43 grams per mile. Fair enough, and not that far from Mike's statement, but it should be remembered that the study presumes that the battery is manufactured in China and then shipped to the US. The Chinese grid is modeled as ~ 80% coal. Use of US grid numbers is I think reasonable today since both Nissan for the LEAF and GM for the Volt; and Tesla in a couple of years, will all manufacture in the states. The US grid varies widely, so just as an example of using the current US grid average of ~ 40% coal, the battery contribution will be in the neighborhood of 1/2, or 22 grams CO2 per mile for a 300 Kg battery.

The current LEAF battery weighs 218 Kg, placing the per mile CO2 from the battery manufacture at (218/300)*22 = 16 grams.
The next Gen LEAF is reportedly around 300 Kg based on the jump in anticipated range.

A domestic PHEV20 would then be in the vicinity of 4.5 grams CO2 per EV mile, a PHEV40 9 grams, etc

Last edited by SageBrush; September 20th, 2015 at 18:43.
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Old September 20th, 2015, 16:45   #24
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This thread is to continue a discussion from the thread on Volkswagen Clean Air Act violations.
My last post in that discussion:
Very interesting DailyKos article.
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Old September 20th, 2015, 17:09   #25
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Very interesting DailyKos article.
Hi !

Pretty good article, except for the bit about night time charging. My understanding is that utilities do not want to shut down the plant completely, but they can and do run it at much less than peak capacity with very little or no loss of efficiency. So the notion of running EVs on otherwise wasted electricity is I believe wrong. Certainly there is no such accounting going on in GREET.

A widespread occurrence in Colorado is to have windmills shut down at night because the utilities refuse to buy the power, preferring the coal plant instead. But that is a matter of utility profit. If EVs ramped up night charging at night, the utilities would ramp up the coal plants.

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Old September 20th, 2015, 17:15   #26
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It's nuke plants that are really hard to throttle (and there's no inherent CO2 emissions from nuclear fuel (maybe embodied, though), but it is nonrenewable), but as I understand coal is difficult to throttle as well? Calling BKmetz...
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Old September 20th, 2015, 17:44   #27
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Is it fair to consider the battery in an EV comparable to the fuel in a conventional vehicle?

Considering it's a core part of the vehicle with a (relatively) long lifespan, it's probably more appropriate to consider it part of the vehicle's total footprint.

So put 2 brand new vehicles side by side, one EV, one conventional: they're probably going to have similar footprint. That still leaves the EV ahead on the road though.

The big question mark over EVs is whether the power generation grid can cope with replacing a substantial portion of ICEV use with EV use?

(I'm still working through the Daily Kos article so my questions might be answered in there yet)
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Old September 20th, 2015, 18:54   #28
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The big question mark over EVs is whether the power generation grid can cope with replacing a substantial portion of ICEV use with EV use?
(I'm still working through the Daily Kos article so my questions might be answered in there yet)
This.
http://insideevs.com/dont-worry-us-g...tric-vehicles/
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Old September 20th, 2015, 20:58   #29
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It's nuke plants that are really hard to throttle (and there's no inherent CO2 emissions from nuclear fuel (maybe embodied, though), but it is nonrenewable), but as I understand coal is difficult to throttle as well? Calling BKmetz...
Toof has called on me because I have 37 years in the fossil fuel power plant industry.

The language in that Dailykos article concerning coal plants taking days to change the burn rate of coal is just facking stupid. The author pulled that one out of his arse. Hours yes, but not days. The rate of change (ROC) depends on too many variables to list but is mostly dependent on the plant design and what generation of controls technology the plant is using.

The other big facking piece of misinformation is that powerplants waste power at night. ALL powerplants (nuke & fossil) drop load at night when the grid load drops. They always have. Fast cycle coal plants will come off line in the evening and cycle back on in time for the morning load pick up. Large coal plants & nukes will ramp down to their minimum load. Gaps in the grid load are picked up on the spot market by most of the gas turbine plants, which usually do not run as base loaded units, but they can if needed.

The off-peak price part of the article is the only thing that is somewhat factual. Every powerplant has start-up and shut-down costs. Costs can run as high as into the tens of thousands in a start up or shutdown. Utilities do want to keep the plants on and at as high a load as possible to maintain maximum efficiency. The problem is that the author only cites 2 markets. Most utilities don't offer an off-peak rate.

Overall I'd rate that article a D for accuracy, for the powerplant information anyway.

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Old September 21st, 2015, 08:52   #30
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My son, who lives in Arizona, has an off-peak rate with his power. In the summer in Phoenix, the peak and off-peak periods are due to the large a/c load that everyone has due to the sun coming up.

Here in NH, there is no peak/off peak price difference.

I didn't read the article, but I am sure one of the big problems with price differentials is the cost of capital. That cost is fixed overhead. The cost incurred when they built the plant doesn't change no matter how much power is or is not being generated. And, it must be paid, also without consideration of the amount of power being generated and sold.
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