www.tdiclub.com

Economy - Longevity - Performance
The #1 Source of TDI Information on the Web!
Forums Articles Links Meets
Orders TDI Club Cards TDIFest 2016 Gone, but not forgotten VAG-Com List Unit Conversions TDIClub Chat Thank You

Order your TDIClub merchandise and help support TDIClub


Go Back   TDIClub Forums > TDI Model Specific Discussions Areas > VW MKV-A5 Golf/Jettas

VW MKV-A5 Golf/Jettas Discussions area for A5/MkV Jetta/Golf (2005/2006 PD and 2009 CR).

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old June 7th, 2015, 04:45   #1
glenandem
Newbie
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: manchester
Default 6 speed clutch bleeding nightmare

Hi guys we recently bought a mk5 golf 2.0 gt tdi and the gears was going in but felt notchy so we decided to do a bleed from the bleed valve on top of the gearbox as the slave cylinder is inside the gearbox.
We kept the fluid topped right up and I've tried bleeding it everyday I can with a one way bleed valve, holding pedal down undoing it then closing it and repeat, I've even tried pushing fluid up the line with a syringe and it still won't bleed properly, we get a pedal but when trying to engage gears it's like the pedals not all the way down, it's gone worse since we tried to bleed it so I'm certain there's still abit of air in the slave cylinder side of the system, anyone any ideas how to bleed this bit out?
glenandem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 7th, 2015, 06:25   #2
GCBUG00
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Hartsville SC
TDI(s): 2000 Beetle
Default

One suggestion to try. But if your system has any leak anywhere it may never bleed out as it may be continuously pulling air back in.

This technique may sound like you've already tried it but it has one twist, the starting point.

Setup, put a hose on bleed screw to a waste container.

1. Pedal fully up.
2. Open bleed screw.
3. Slowly push the clutch pedal to the floor.
4. As soon as it hits the floor, close the bleed screw.
5. Lift the clutch pedal by hand, it must come all the way back up to start the next cycle.
6. Repeat for several cycles maybe cycling about 6 oz of fluid thru the system.

Rather than trying to build pressure, this technique flushes from the master cylinder.

Good luck.
GCBUG00 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 7th, 2015, 06:44   #3
jason_
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: grand rapids michigan
Default

My problem is getting worse then yours.

Collapsed pressure plate fingers. I thought I had air too.
jason_ is online now   Reply With Quote
Old June 7th, 2015, 09:47   #4
GCBUG00
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Hartsville SC
TDI(s): 2000 Beetle
Default

Jason,

Is that a pre teardown comment or after teardown result? What is/was the drivability observation? Also, what car.

Gary
GCBUG00 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 7th, 2015, 13:10   #5
glenandem
Newbie
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: manchester
Default

I am getting a pulsing through the pedal like dmf screwed but it's just had new clutch and flywheel before we bought it apparantly and it looks new looking through bell housing.
We're seriously thinking about taking the gearbox out to bleed the slave cylinder as that's where we're adamant the air is stuck
glenandem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 7th, 2015, 14:08   #6
GCBUG00
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Hartsville SC
TDI(s): 2000 Beetle
Default

Internal slave cylinder, to remove trans you have to disconnect the line. If the line and slave cylinder connection do not have check valves in them the fluid will just flow out. Some systems do have built in check valves, not sure if yours does. Removing a trans to bleed an internal slave cylinder is not any service procedure that I have ever heard of.

OK, new clutch and flywheel, what about the slave cylinder?

Did you try the open bleed screw procedure? Bleeding these can be frustrating, I agree. Best overall advice, brake bleeding techniques may not be the best technique.
GCBUG00 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 7th, 2015, 14:51   #7
glenandem
Newbie
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: manchester
Default

I've thought about getting a gunson bleeder that connects to a tyre valve and uses the air pressure as I've tried everything like the pumping then bleed and Also the single pump hold down open bleed and repeat etc, then I tried the syringe and back bleed forcing it up the other way but nothing, I can't help but think the air is in the slave cylinder on the other side of the bleed valve and the way the system works it's only allowing fluid coming the master cylinder side to bleed easily and not getting anything from the slave side?
glenandem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 7th, 2015, 15:06   #8
GCBUG00
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Hartsville SC
TDI(s): 2000 Beetle
Default

Repeated pumping, ineffective. The clutch pedal is always on the floor when you open the bleed screw. The slave cyl tries to respond, miserably.

Do you have very much to loose by trying the technique I suggested? In the exact order presented, no variation.
GCBUG00 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 7th, 2015, 18:46   #9
Seatman
Veteran Member
 
Seatman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Scotland
Fuel Economy: No idea
Default

They can be a pain in the root to bleed, some more than others. Mine was a weird one, me and a friend bled it, got enough pedal to change gears easily so left it at that because I'd just finished doing a heap of work and it was late.
Anyway the clutch seemed to bleed itself the rest, pedal got higher till eventually it was like normal after a few days lol.

I replaced a master on a ford focus and that one had me sticking a litre of fluid through the system a few times before it eventually worked.

I think the secret is to be relentless, just like with the rear brake callipers sometimes, just got to keep on trying till eventually it just works.


I vote for GCBUG00's method except I prefer to close the bleed nipple before the pedal reaches full travel. Got to go really slow though with the pedal I find.
Seatman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 8th, 2015, 02:55   #10
Henrick
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Ireland
Default

I also had a PITA to bleed after master and slave cylinders replacement.
(I sold the car with the problem anyway)
Everyone was saying I'm sick with my imagination but I really knew that there was still air trapped and clutch not fully releasing.
Henrick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 8th, 2015, 15:02   #11
jason_
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: grand rapids michigan
Default

Pre teardown. I have to squeeze carpet before it'll release and if I'm a faction of an inch too high from carpet, I'll bump a tooth trying to shift gears. 4 dealers bled it. All 4 confirmed the fingers are getting weak.

Anyone that understands a clutch, if the fingers collapse and get weak, you need to go further to release.....

I have the ****tier of the scenarios. A clutch that won't release, isn't slipping, and dmf that rattles like a mofo idling...

Ordering parts next Friday.


Haha, advice question, should I replace my slave, or not open it to keep get air in it to a minimum?
jason_ is online now   Reply With Quote
Old June 8th, 2015, 17:50   #12
GCBUG00
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Hartsville SC
TDI(s): 2000 Beetle
Default

jason,

OK, I'll make a prediction based on the info above.

Releases right at the floor, not slipping, all 4 confirmed the fingers are getting weak. Didn't we list not slipping already, yup.

I don't know the history, not sure which of your fleet it is but I'm not expecting collapsed fingers. This is cluing in on the "its not slipping comment" time will tell, please give us the rest of the story later. DMF can be a bit of a wild card, holding that for a reserve play.

Gary
GCBUG00 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 8th, 2015, 18:07   #13
GCBUG00
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Hartsville SC
TDI(s): 2000 Beetle
Default

Seatman,

There is a scenario where the master cyl can be self bleeding. Or more accurately burp out the last of the bubbles.

Two primary requirements in the design, a continous uphill path to the reservoir and it needs a piston port master cylinder. Piston port can be identified by the distance between the fluid input port to fluid discharge port. Its just a bit shorter than the system stroke. The other design, the fluid in and out are only offset by 1/2-3/4" or so, very close.

Do your best, whatever technique but its not quite bled.

The piston port has a front pressure chamber and a rear compensating chamber. Comp chamber has a large supply port, pressure chamber really small.

The piston seal at rest (pedal up) is positioned in between the two ports, just as you start to push on the pedal IF the air bubble is right spot at the small port (slight tip helps) as you just start to build pressure but before the pressure port closes voila the air bubble is squeezed out of the small port. But its only one bubble at a time. If you had a clear supply tube, you could actually see them pop out. So really short strokes CAN push a single bubble out one at a time.

These systems can also benefit from dry vacuum bleeding.

Gary
GCBUG00 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 9th, 2015, 05:23   #14
jason_
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: grand rapids michigan
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GCBUG00 View Post
jason,

OK, I'll make a prediction based on the info above.

Releases right at the floor, not slipping, all 4 confirmed the fingers are getting weak. Didn't we list not slipping already, yup.

I don't know the history, not sure which of your fleet it is but I'm not expecting collapsed fingers. This is cluing in on the "its not slipping comment" time will tell, please give us the rest of the story later. DMF can be a bit of a wild card, holding that for a reserve play.

Gary
So even after those details you still think my clutch is slipping, my pressure plate fingers are not collapsed, and I have air in the line?

I'm suggesting OP problem might possibly be similar to my problem.

and yes it is possible to have a clutch that will not release and it will not slip. It's called not fully releasing, which can explain notchy bumps, which is possible if the fingers lost their tension, cheap grade spring steel, from thousands of releases from the release bearing pushing into them.


But there might be a bubble in there. Happy hunting for him
jason_ is online now   Reply With Quote
Old June 9th, 2015, 06:05   #15
GCBUG00
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Hartsville SC
TDI(s): 2000 Beetle
Default

Jason,

No, I'm reaffirming based on your statement that its not slipping and using that as a basis for my comments.

That heat treated diaphragm spring is the heart of the diaphragm clutch. It provides clampload, it allows the pressure plate to be pulled away for release. If it cracks, or if somehow it looses its temper it can no longer clamp the disc, slipping, no lift the whole system is SNAFU if that spring fails.

Your inspection of the clutch will be the big observation report.

I have 3 hydraulic release system vehicles, the Bug and a pair of Dodge Cummins. All have crisp hydraulic systems. As soon as the port in the MC is closed they start creating pressure immediately as they should. No appreciably delay, lag at all. But it you were to pull a slave cylinder and compress it you'll find they compress by hand indicating that the port in the MC is open, allowing the system to be at ZERO PSI when your foot is off of the pedal.

This is something about a diaphragm clutch that makes this challenging, can't hook up a VagCom and get any codes for a manual transmission clutch or release system.

Gary

Last edited by GCBUG00; June 9th, 2015 at 06:07.
GCBUG00 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 2 (0 members and 2 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Clutch Bleeding jnchahn VW MKIV-A4 TDIs (VE and PD) 1 September 23rd, 2012 17:07
When bleeding clutch is it? beetlebug 99 TDI 101 6 September 16th, 2008 07:40
6-speed clutch bleeding problem marcusku Upgrades (non TDI Engine related) 3 April 2nd, 2007 18:03
$4000 5-speed transmission nightmare CochiseTDI VW MKIV-A4 TDIs (VE and PD) 18 August 23rd, 2004 19:49
Brake Bleeding Nightmare! mickey VW MKIV-A4 TDIs (VE and PD) 6 March 11th, 2001 18:35


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:24.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright - TDIClub Online LTD - 2017
Contact Us | Privacy Statement | Forum Rules | Disclaimer
TDIClub Online Ltd (TDIClub.com) is not affiliated with the VWoA or VWAG and is supported by contributions from viewers like you.
1996 - 2017, All Rights Reserved
Page generated in 0.17032 seconds with 10 queries
[Output: 123.59 Kb. compressed to 103.52 Kb. by saving 20.07 Kb. (16.24%)]