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TDI Power Enhancements Discussions about increasing the power of your TDI engine. i.e. chips, injectors, powerboxes, clutches, etc. Handling, suspensions, wheels, type discussion should be put into the "Upgrades (non TDI Engine related)" forum. Non TDI vehicle related postings will be moved or removed. Please note the Performance Disclaimer.

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Old March 2nd, 2014, 11:38   #1
[486]
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Default A different kind of EGR delete (ALH)

After a lot of reading on the subject it seems to me that the only good the EGR brings is that it heats your engine, be it through the EGR cooler, or the inert gasses reintroduced to the intake bringing up engine load to make more heat in the jackets. By eliminating the EGR you lose the heat put directly into the coolant, and the extra engine heat brought about by loading the engine down. I live in MN, and it is a little bit cold. I don't like that my engine takes forever to warm up as is, so an EGR delete in the traditional manner is out of the question for me. The other issue here is that the fact that the EGR is run at such a high amount I fear that it is causing some pretty severe coking.

On a tangent, something I learned about the priuses; they get the cabin heat from the engine coolant, and when the coolant is cold it'll run the engine just to heat the coolant, even if it is on battery and there is sufficient charge. This means that they want to scavenge the most heat possible from the engine during the short time it is running. They included an "exhaust heat reclaimer", which is more or less just like our EGR cooler, but on a bigger scale.

With that in mind I get to thinking that if I were to delete the EGR I could keep the EGR cooler to scavenge some heat from the exhaust. So to do that I'd need to get exhaust flow through the EGR cooler element, but without dumping the exhaust into the intake stream. To get flow you need a pressure differential, in the stock system the exhaust backpressure on the engine side of the turbine will always be higher than the impeller's output pressure, meaning some pressure differential and therefore flow when the valve is opened.

My idea of the alternate direction I can dump the exhaust would be back into the exhaust stream, just after the turbine. There should be more pressure differential than the stock setup, so I could probably get more flow and therefore more heat out of the system. The flow wouldn't need to be as precisely regulated to avoid choking the engine with exhaust into its intake either. Could probably even eliminate computer control from it altogether by using a thermostatic vacuum control valve from an old smog-era car. Coolant temperature is low, it allows vacuum to a vacuum operated EGR valve taken off of some other vehicle, allowing flow through the EGR cooler element, once coolant temp comes up the thermostatic valve vents the vacuum which shuts off flow. Simple as that.

The immediately apparent pitfalls of this setup would be that the exhaust gasses would be bypassing the turbine, so the compressor response might be a little different, possibly different enough that the computer would notice a discrepancy in incoming air. Unlikely, but possible. The orifice through any EGR I've seen is at most 1/2", and the iron log going into the turbine housing is 2" or so. Combine that with how much the EGR in its stock form would flow , and the amount this setup would flow and therefore bypass past the turbine is quite minimal.

tl;dr, remove EGR valve, reroute EGR cooler output to a repurposed EGR valve that dumps into the exhaust, post-turbine

What says you guys?

Last edited by [486]; March 2nd, 2014 at 11:49.
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Old March 2nd, 2014, 12:08   #2
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I've got all the parts to do this back in 2008, but never installed it - here's the OEM valve you need...

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=202876

And a valve just like you were describing for modulating the vacuum from something like an 86 Caprice or similar.

Grab some old EGR cooler pipes and weld one with a flange end into the downpipe and then it's a nice modular install that comes apart like OEM.

I think you'll have very noticeable performance issues if you have this wide open bypassing the turbine - if you don't have a tune you'll for sure get a CEL from the MAF not seeing the EGR Flow and likely an underboost code as well. You'll have to experiment with a flow rate that won't effect performance enough to cause a problem - you'll get lots of heat into the coolant this way in my opinion.

I'm guessing you'd get a relatively quick warmup just by letting it idle for 5min - Here's some more discussion on a similar topic - post 10 brings this idea up again

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=146040
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Old March 2nd, 2014, 16:42   #3
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Originally Posted by Fix_Until_Broke View Post
I've got all the parts to do this back in 2008, but never installed it - here's the OEM valve you need...

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=202876

And a valve just like you were describing for modulating the vacuum from something like an 86 Caprice or similar.

Grab some old EGR cooler pipes and weld one with a flange end into the downpipe and then it's a nice modular install that comes apart like OEM.

I think you'll have very noticeable performance issues if you have this wide open bypassing the turbine - if you don't have a tune you'll for sure get a CEL from the MAF not seeing the EGR Flow and likely an underboost code as well. You'll have to experiment with a flow rate that won't effect performance enough to cause a problem - you'll get lots of heat into the coolant this way in my opinion.

I'm guessing you'd get a relatively quick warmup just by letting it idle for 5min - Here's some more discussion on a similar topic - post 10 brings this idea up again

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=146040
You're my hero.

I tried to use the search function and there's 100 pages of people doing bolt-ons, thanks for linking me to the good stuff.

Well, yeah it'll definitely show the now EGR flow codes, but people know how to make the computer ignore that. Gotta go research that one next, ain't no fun to pay someone else to do it.

Last edited by [486]; March 2nd, 2014 at 16:51.
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Old March 2nd, 2014, 17:08   #4
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Awww - shucks

Take VCDS logs of warmup times before/after and let us know how it turns out.
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Old March 2nd, 2014, 18:25   #5
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I'll be cleaning out the intake and tearing the turbo down to free up the sticky vanes at the same time, so it might not be the most accurate test around, but I'll try and get some "before" logs. (man oh man I'm going to be hateful to everything tomorrow morning, haha)
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Old March 2nd, 2014, 19:03   #6
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The system you describe sounds very complex, difficult to fabricate and likely harder to make operate correctly. IIRC, there is a solution offered by one of the tuners that operates the egr but only during warmup to accomplish exactly what you describe. Another solution may be to install a coolant thermos from a Prius. Plumb it into the heater hoses with a cable operated ball valve. Open valve just before shutdown to fill it with hot coolant, then there will be a load of hot coolant stored for the next cold start? That and get or make you own winter front.
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Old March 2nd, 2014, 19:09   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rwthomas1 View Post
The system you describe sounds very complex, difficult to fabricate and likely harder to make operate correctly.
+ 1.

The EGR "coking" issue is so dead, as of 2007 when Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel fuel was introduced nationwide . It really doesn't happen to the same degree as it used to unless the drivers are not getting the engine up to temperature by driving very short distances only.

Install a coolant heater, block off the radiator and intercooler in cold winters, and drive.

This is a solution in search of a problem, IMO.
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Old March 2nd, 2014, 19:09   #8
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I believe that it's the same level of complexity as the OEM EGR system, just routing the exhaust to the downpipe instead of the intake manifold.

Malone has the "Dynamic EGR" that's only on for warm-up
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Old March 2nd, 2014, 19:25   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rwthomas1 View Post
The system you describe sounds very complex, difficult to fabricate and likely harder to make operate correctly. IIRC, there is a solution offered by one of the tuners that operates the egr but only during warmup to accomplish exactly what you describe. Another solution may be to install a coolant thermos from a Prius. Plumb it into the heater hoses with a cable operated ball valve. Open valve just before shutdown to fill it with hot coolant, then there will be a load of hot coolant stored for the next cold start? That and get or make you own winter front.
What's complex about taking the pipe off the EGR valve and dumping it into a bung welded to the downpipe? Ain't even any o2 sensors on the exhaust to disconnect before welding, lest they backfeed into the computer.

Complex would be swapping the turbo's cartridge for a water cooled one I've got. (I should read up on that one, might be able to do some hybridization) Complex would be using old heat crossover parts from a GM V8 to route all the exhaust post-turbine through a heat exchanger without making the cooling system into a boiler once its warm. Complex would be a coolant bottle apparatus to hold an extra gallon of coolant in the system with internal valves to reduce cooling by convection currents.

From what I understand the coolant reservoir in the prius is more to provide a large thermal mass for the heater to draw heat from between the times the engine is running, as in 5-15 minutes at a time. Park the car overnight in -20 degree F weather and the entire system'll be dead cold.

I don't mean to come off as a dick, but by neck sure gets stiff when I take those little blue pills.

Quote:
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It really doesn't happen to the same degree as it used to unless the drivers are not getting the engine up to temperature by driving very short distances only.
My commute is 10 miles. This thing seems to reach operating temperature in about 6 miles when it is warm enough for it to start. My hondurcurr warms up in a mile. It's all relative.

Last edited by [486]; March 2nd, 2014 at 19:29.
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Old March 2nd, 2014, 19:47   #10
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Hey, if you think its easy go for it and post the results. Taking a bunch of stainless pipes, etc and relocating them in the relatively cramped space behind the engine seems like aton of work. The Prius system is specifically for cold startup and the thermos will stay warm for three days. The system is well diagramed on the web and transplanting the thermos and the pump in its entirety while operating the pump, etc. with switches would be relatively simple. Coolant hoses and wiring is easier than cutting, welding and tweaking on stainless pipe. Given the short commute, an engine heater is probably the simplest solution.
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Old March 2nd, 2014, 19:58   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by [486] View Post
My commute is 10 miles. This thing seems to reach operating temperature in about 6 miles when it is warm enough for it to start. My hondurcurr warms up in a mile. It's all relative.
Ah, I see. Well, not to be rude, but a diesel power plant is definitely not the first choice for a cold-climate, short commute. Good luck and have fun
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Old March 4th, 2014, 05:17   #12
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Ah, I see. Well, not to be rude, but a diesel power plant is definitely not the first choice for a cold-climate, short commute. Good luck and have fun
Yup, 'sall good. Got the car for cheap, and am slowly working toward fixing what's wrong.

Tried the data logging thing 4 times now and every time it stops communicating as soon as I start moving. I can sit and watch the data displays and log data sitting still but once the thing moves the cable will not connect to the computer. Gonna have to do more troubleshooting, so there might not be any hard data before it warms up.

Might even have a more proper mechanical throttle injection pump on it by the time next winter rolls around.
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Old March 4th, 2014, 07:54   #13
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If you have an aftermarket radio installed....turn it off before plugging into the diagnosistic port.
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Old March 4th, 2014, 10:21   #14
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I don't even listen to the radio, nothing but commercials, and anyways, just a distraction from the task at hand (driving).

So, 77k miles ago (according to a receipt in the (broken) glovebox) someone cleaned out this thing's intake and drilled the carbon out of the EGR cooler's passages. Previous owner lived in the city. Lawdy lawdy, I couldn't fit a quarter flat-ways through the hole in the poop in the intake.








So much for the EGR coking issue being "so dead as of 2007".
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Old March 4th, 2014, 15:24   #15
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Looks like the Wife's car at @130k. Cleaned the intake, did the RC3 tune and 70k later there was just a black film in the intake. That's with all the egr stuff intact, just tuned out. FWIW...
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