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TDI Power Enhancements Discussions about increasing the power of your TDI engine. i.e. chips, injectors, powerboxes, clutches, etc. Handling, suspensions, wheels, type discussion should be put into the "Upgrades (non TDI Engine related)" forum. Non TDI vehicle related postings will be moved or removed. Please note the Performance Disclaimer.

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Old June 22nd, 2013, 18:44   #1
DirtyD23
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Default 2006 Jetta TDI (BRM) 5 Speed Build

5/17-I recently resurrected this thread as I actually have the time to complete the work I wanted to do.


I have a 2006 Jetta TDI w/ 5 Speed, engine code BRM. I'm looking basically to build a very reliable vehicle that maintains its status as a daily driver while adding some power and handling to increase its "Fun Factor". I'm not looking for crazy levels of power but would like to increase the power to around 190-200hp 300-350tq while still maintaining a stock driving experience and the reliability to jump in and be able to drive across country if i want while still getting 45-50MPG HWY.

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Old June 22nd, 2013, 18:53   #2
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So first on the list is the drivetrain. Right now the car is bone stock and the 5 Speed has a DMF that is on its last leg so I'm thinking 6 Speed swap 02M or 02Q. Then throw in a Peloquin, steel shift forks, cryo treat the internals, short shift kit and put a SMF with a decent torque rating and stock pedal feel. Then I will just sell the 5 speed to someone for an 5 speed conversion to recoup some of the cost of the 6 speed.

What do you guys think? I need to find sources for parts as well, Ive already contacted RyanP about the 6 speed but are there any good sources here in the US?
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Old June 23rd, 2013, 09:22   #3
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BRM isn't the best platform to start off with. Limited turbo upgrades, smaller injectors then the BEW..... I'd probably drop a Stage II tune into it and be done with it.
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Old June 23rd, 2013, 10:46   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DirtyD23 View Post
So first on the list is the drivetrain. Right now the car is bone stock and the 5 Speed has a DMF that is on its last leg so I'm thinking 6 Speed swap 02M or 02Q. Then throw in a Peloquin, steel shift forks, cryo treat the internals, short shift kit and put a SMF with a decent torque rating and stock pedal feel. Then I will just sell the 5 speed to someone for an 5 speed conversion to recoup some of the cost of the 6 speed.

What do you guys think? I need to find sources for parts as well, Ive already contacted RyanP about the 6 speed but are there any good sources here in the US?
Not that I now of... RyanP is the best source I know for 6 speeds + he has the PD injector nozzles and turbo upgrades you will need ... He also has somebody who can mount and balance them for you... You cannot go wrong buying from Ry..I found him to be the cheapest source for 6 speeds and other performance components.. Big turbo kits, TIP, IM, Airboxes etc
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Old June 23rd, 2013, 10:47   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DirtyD23 View Post
I have a 2006 Jetta TDI w/ 5 Speed, engine code BRM. I'm looking basically to build a very reliable vehicle that maintains its status as a daily driver while adding some power and handling to increase its "Fun Factor". I'm not looking for crazy levels of power but would like to increase the power to around 200-250hp 350-400tq while still maintaining a stock driving experience and the reliability to jump in and be able to drive across country if i want while still getting 45-50MPG+.
I see people starting to throw numbers around as a "goal" without an inkling of what it takes to get there other than maybe a few hours reading forum threads.

250 hp... That is definitely considered unusual (maybe even crazy) levels of power in a BRM. Certainly out of the ordinary, or at least would get you into the 1% club or so. Not saying it can't be done, just not as casually as you seem to want (or as inexpensively as you may have been led to expect.) You will for sure remove your car from the "just drive it" transportation category and make it your hobby. (do you have another car to drive while you spend months sorting it for that last 50 hp??)

IMO you will lose many of the things that makes your TDI such a great car, in the pursuit of peak numbers.

there are a few guys with those numbers, with giant threads with lots of gratz and thanx. But take a closer look. How many months go by, how much time and labor, shop time (paid by the hour), sorting all the little aggro things like retightening bolts every week, exhaust leaks, downtime when you can't drive the car at all, lost weekends spent with the car on jackstands and sleepless nights wrenching

At the end, hey look at the amazing dyno numbers, but that says nothing about how the car actually drives at part throttle in daily use.

Of course the peak numbers you can obtain depends on what dyno you use, and the operator. And consider that dynos only show one set of operating conditions, that do not represent the daily driving everyone does at part throttle.

Not routinely done, and not without nitrous or expensive turbos and customization, exotic headwork, complete low compression/high boost/high fuel/high smoke/ low fuel economy, and so forth. Certainly out of the ordinary and not routinely done without a lot of effort and expense. We are certainly out of the realm of a few off the shelf bolt ons and you will for sure give up SOMETHING. You are taking a 100 hp car and forcing it to produce 2.5 tines the factory output.

For example, fuel to get those numbers requires more air, which means a turbo that pushes enough to "get the numbers" which will make the car a smoky dog in the daily driver range of rpm. Because the power and torque curve is shifted to higher rpm. If you look closely at the handful of ~250 HP "alll motor" dynos that have been posted here on this site, they mostly come to life about 3000 rpm, and go to more than 5000 rpm in order to get the benefit of rpm to make the HP numbers. (Hp= torque x RPM /5252) It's not anything like driving a TDI any more. Something like driving a peaky vtec honda with an oversized turbo, that smokes a lot.

The number of BRM (or other us-market TDI) I've encountered making a bona fide 220 whp all-motor can be counted on one hand. Out of thousands of cars. 190-200 is not much of a stretch but the effort is extraordinary to get that extra 25-50 hp. And it's NOT the same car. There ARE definite tradeoffs that tend to get glossed over in the forum threads you may be reading.

After the first mod, it may seem there's always a free lunch, but there's not infinite power available. The initial dramatic gains are not infinitely scaleable forever.

Let's see what CAN be done while still keeping that TDI goodness within a reasonable budget and keep it reliable for years to come without a second thought.

Here's what you CAN reasonably expect your BRM to do in the real world without extraordinary effort. (none of this considers transmisoisn stuff like a clutch or 6 speed)

- 130 hp give or take is an ecu tune only. Low/no smoke safe operation of the stock turbo with no longevity concerns, plus improved fuel economy.

- Mild upgrade the turbo and 150-160 whp with stock injectors. This is very routine nowadays.

- The next 30-40 hp takes bigger injectors. Thisi is where the diminishing returns really make themselves known. If you want to keep the smoke and EGT reasonable with the added power, airflow mods are needed. these include camshaft, exhaust, intake plumbing. Car already has a FMIC so that's a plus. Headwork is optional but highly recommended.

Now, you CAN push the reliability of your turbo and smoke, and so on if you want to do the numbers on the cheap. You can get a tune that routinely (and unintentionally) pushes the stock turbo to 25 or 28 psi, that gets you another 10-15%, with smoke and egt. Hey, it's great for a while, but that's not what I prefer.

Maybe my take on the statement:

"I'm looking basically to build a very reliable vehicle that maintains its status as a daily driver while adding some power and handling to increase its Fun Factor."

is not the same as yours, because who knows.

You *may* be an exceptionally dedicated and talented fabricator and tinkerer like Matt Witbread who can make anything work. But for many folks a weekend spent in the garage changing a stock turbo is an exceptional event and an inconvenience. If you are a guy who lets "a mechanic" do that stuff, then get a different car if you want to say you have 250 hp.
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Last edited by KERMA; June 23rd, 2013 at 10:52.
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Old June 23rd, 2013, 17:41   #6
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Originally Posted by LNXGUY View Post
BRM isn't the best platform to start off with. Limited turbo upgrades, smaller injectors then the BEW..... I'd probably drop a Stage II tune into it and be done with it.
I love how everyone says the brm isn't the best car to start with....what other car is there a more straight forward recipe to 200+ whp? to the OP I see you are in MI i'd hit up Whitbread he built me a nice setup a few years back didn't lose one ounce of driveability. just be ready to break the bank the cost for another 100 hp isn't cheap in these things.
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Old June 23rd, 2013, 17:55   #7
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Can't agree more with most everything Charlie said above.

I have yet to find anyone with a proven stronger BRM than mine. There may be a few contenders on these boards, but those are counted on one hand I am sure. I am also pretty sure mine is still shy of 250 WHP on any dyno that is not blatantly cheating for numbers. Mine may be approaching 250 BHP but I will make no definite statement.

At my level I'm pretty close to (if not over) the bleeding edge of what the PD head can handle and still make any daily driver claims. On head number two since the build right now. I strongly suspect some of the other high HP PDs are running around with cracked heads now and just don't know it yet. Hell, my new ported one may already have cracked too for all I know.

I hope OP is a talented fabricator and doesn't mind literally months (or years) of development work because that is what his goals will require. My wrenching/fabricating/tuning time since the build is in the hundreds of hours at least.

Gotta go now. I need to check my parts and materials list for next weekend's project. Gonna have to drop the subframe to replace my dogbone bushing with a urethane VWR unit. My reinforced OEM one is trashed and front wheels are hopping like mad in spite of my LSD, urethane upper engine mounts and urethane LCA bushings. It'll vibrate your eye teeth out at idle now. Can't wait to see how that new lower mount is going to make it worse

Don't mean to rain on anyone's parade. Just sharing a little reality. If you have the time/money/skill, it is a great hobby.
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Old June 23rd, 2013, 17:57   #8
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KERMA: Those numbers aren't set in stone they were just a goal.
What would be your ideal build to fit the statement:
"I'm looking basically to build a very reliable vehicle that maintains its status as a daily driver while adding some power and handling to increase its Fun Factor."?

So far this was my thinking in regards to power:
1856 Turbo (yours)
BEW injectors with bigger nozzles (not sure exactly the size yet)
3 inch turbo back exhaust straight through, maybe HF cat
Franks BRM cam
Malone tune

I think that would put me where I want to be, considering there are guys on here making 175hp 300tq at the wheels with PD140 turbo- PD150 Injectors-tune

Sootman= http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=352348

Does anyone have any numbers from Kerma's 1856 or can you (KERMA) estimate the potential of this turbo with tuning and suitable injectors on a BRM. I figure this turbo will be very streetable making its boost lower in the RPM band and the bigger hotside should keep EGT's pretty low

And yes I have more than one vehicle and my best friend is a diesel mechanic by trade with his own tools and garage. Also if i need anything crazy designed Whitbread isnt very far of a drive.. As far as saying I have over 250hp My stepfather and II have a 1973 Nova that easily more than doubles that figure as well as a 2006 F250 that if i had to guess is around 500hp 850tq still getting 22mpg on 35's. Most of the work on those two vehicles I have done myself with the help of my stepdad and my best friend.
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Old June 23rd, 2013, 18:41   #9
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Charlie's right

If you want good street manners with plenty of TQ at low rpm I would stick with a 49 or 52mm turbo

56 or 60+mm turbos are not ideal for 1.9-2L displacement unless you are OK with having the torque peak at higher rpm

I have had the VNT-17, VNT-20, 1856, and now 2260

The 1749 can be a real TQ monster at very low rpm. It may lose in mid and upper rpm power to the bigger offerings but it can still give you excellent FE and 180hp/350+ft-lbs.

It really all goes back to Dave's chart. You can't have your cake and eat it too (i.e. single turbo, no drugs):

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Old June 23rd, 2013, 20:23   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ducesrwld View Post
I love how everyone says the brm isn't the best car to start with....what other car is there a more straight forward recipe to 200+ whp? to the OP I see you are in MI i'd hit up Whitbread he built me a nice setup a few years back didn't lose one ounce of driveability. just be ready to break the bank the cost for another 100 hp isn't cheap in these things.
BEW. Better injectors out of the box, more turbo options, etc etc.. BRM is like the red headed stepchild.. There's a reason why you don't see a lot of highly modded BRM's, because they are a pain in the ass to do. If you aren't fabbing up your own stuff, it will cost you lots and lots of $$$$. Not to mention the cam issues that plague that motor.
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Old June 23rd, 2013, 20:44   #11
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I think you are on the right track. Charlie is right. Not a ton of high output BRM powered cars out there period, much less ones that are totally streetable once modified that much. Can it be done? Absolutely. Can it be streetable too? Sure thing. But its gonna cost ya....lots. 200 whp? Much easier and cheaper. Yes... that last 50 whp and you are giving things up. Especially money. It will be interesting to see where you go with it. Many are shy about pursuing this type of power in that platform. So it is rarely done. But the more people do it, the easier it gets.
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Old June 23rd, 2013, 21:16   #12
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I think the Op would be surprised at JUST how powerful a 150 hp tdi really feels. The 'low" HP number belies the pull.
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Old June 24th, 2013, 11:30   #13
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doesn't the BEW & BRM have the same cam issue?

RyanP does make a kit for a BRM, you just have to ask for it...
so what would this yield on a BRM:

GTB2260vk
Farid nozzles (+100%)
Franko Cam/colt Stage2 cam
Tune form your favorite vendor
EGR delete/turned off & keep the ASV
Clutch

maybe a PD150 intake, I have yet to see the reason why its better.
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Old June 24th, 2013, 11:36   #14
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So after doing some more research, I'm pretty set on going with the GTB1749VK and keeping this build at the 200hp mark maybe a little more
So I figure I have 2 options at this point a bolt on one from RyanP http://www.darksidedevelopments.co.u...-gtb1749v.html

or buy the turbo and a custom tubular manifold, I think the price is very good for what Ryan is offering but if i was to get a tubular EMF I think it would flow better and more evenly..and I have the option to go with a bigger GTB series if i wanted and it would bolt up. I think this with some bigger injectors, free flowing exhaust, Malone tune and one of Frank06's cam would make a nice reliable car. It should have a decent torque curve for a DD and the fuel Economy shouldn't change too much.

Thoughts?

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Old June 24th, 2013, 11:50   #15
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Keaton:Here is a link to Ryan's page with some table of projected numbers with the correct supporting mods.
http://www.darksidedevelopments.co.u...onversion.html

Thats just too big a turbo for what Im looking for and doesnt put the power where I want it for a DD...Also I would think with all that power you would start to have reliability issues as far as the driveline going. Thats why before I venture down the into the black hole of power mods, I want to build the driveline.
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