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VW B5 Passat TDIs This is a general discussion about B5 Passat(>98 (2004-2005 in North America)). Non TDI related postings will be moved or removed.

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Old April 18th, 2013, 16:09   #1
demhaizar
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Join Date: May 2005
Location: BFL, CA & SW, MI
Question 05 Passat, NO start when engine hot!!

Hello all,
Let me give a history,.....
2005 Passat Wagon BHW TDI ~210,000miles, Automatic

BSM @ 190,000miles, along with timing belt, water pump, pulleys, alternator bearing, motor mounts and associated bits and pieces by Car-Doc in St. Louis.
Rebuilt Transmission by dealer @ ~200,000
Runs great, no issues except what the title states,
I have read the multitude of info on this problem that others had, and have done the following;
- replaced fuel filter
- replaced relay 219
- no leaks around the Tandem pump, and oil level is just right,(it was changed recently).

car starts without a problem when engine is cold/cool, NO start when hot/warm. what's up any thing else to check?

Thanks for reading my post....!!

Here is a full scan

Thursday,18,April,2013,18:03:31:64076
VCDS Version: Release 11.11.5
Data version: 20121222


Chassis Type: 3B - VW Passat B5
Scan: 01 02 03 08 15 16 17 19 35 36 37 46 47 55 56 57 58 75 76 77


Mileage: 338230km/210166miles
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 01: Engine Labels: 038-906-016-BHW.lbl
Part No SW: 038 906 016 R HW: 028 101 198 2
Component: R4 2,0L EDC G000AG 6416
Revision: 12345678 Serial number: VWZ7Z0D1024204
Coding: 0150034
Shop #: WSC 05311 000 00000
VCID: 234E537AE12FB4001CE

No fault code found.
Readiness: 0 0 0 0 1

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 02: Auto Trans Labels: 01V-927-156.lbl
Part No: 3B0 927 156 CF
Component: AG5 01V 2.0lPD USA 0505
Coding: 0001104
Shop #: WSC 05311 000 00000
VCID: 6CDC78464C71BB78ED4

Part No: 3B0 927 156 CF
Component: AG5 01V 2.0lPD USA 0505

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 03: ABS Brakes Labels: 4B0-614-517.lbl
Part No: 4B0 614 517 G
Component: ABS/ESP front 3428
Coding: 04257
Shop #: WSC 05311
VCID: 254A4D62BF1B4A3072A

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 15: Airbags Labels: 6Q0-909-605-VW5.lbl
Part No: 1C0 909 605 C
Component: 09 AIRBAG VW61 04 0003
Coding: 12345
Shop #: WSC 05311
VCID: 244C5066B421B338654

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 17: Instruments Labels: 3B0-920-xx5-17.lbl
Part No: 3B0 920 929 C
Component: KOMBI+WEGFAHRSP VDO V07
Coding: 15235
Shop #: WSC 00000
VCID: 2756476AC5175820406
WVWCE63B05E100141 VWZ7Z0D1024204

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 19: CAN Gateway Labels: 6N0-909-901-19.lbl
Part No: 6N0 909 901
Component: Gateway K<->CAN 0001
Coding: 00006
Shop #: WSC 00004
VCID: F0E4EC36B059DF9851C

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 46: Central Conv. Labels: 1C0-959-799.lbl
Part No: 1C0 959 799 C
Component: 80 Komfortgerát HLO 0004
Coding: 00258
Shop #: WSC 05311
VCID: 3776972A15B7C8A0D06

Subsystem 1 - Part No: 1C1959801
Component: 80 Tőrsteuer.FS KLO 0202

Subsystem 2 - Part No: 1C1959802
Component: 80 Tőrsteuer.BF KLO 0202

Subsystem 3 - Part No: 1C0959811
Component: 80 Tőrsteuer.HL KLO 0202

Subsystem 4 - Part No: 1C0959812
Component: 80 Tőrsteuer.HR KLO 0202

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 56: Radio Labels: 3B7-035-1xx-56.lbl
Part No: 3B7 035 180 G
Component: Radio PM6 0016
Coding: 00031
Shop #: WSC 05311
VCID: 244C5066B421B338654

No fault code found.

End ---------------------------------------------------------------------

Last edited by demhaizar; April 18th, 2013 at 16:13.
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Old April 18th, 2013, 17:23   #2
QuickTD
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Low cranking speed can cause hot starting problems. Try boosting the car from another vehicle, if starting improves the battery, cables or possibly starter may be suspect. Cranking speed should be 250rpm or higher using vcds logging.

Cam position sensor can cause long crank times but the engine will eventually start, synchronization value in VDCS will be less than 48. May or may not set a code. Vcds logs of the appropriate blocks will tell a better story.

Cam timing can cause long crank or no start if bad enough. Torsion value should be in the range of -1.0 to 0.5 with engine running. I find -0.5 to be ideal, your results may vary.

Gummed up anti-shudder valve will cause strange sounding (fast) crank and no start but should set a code.

I'm sure others will have more ideas...
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Old April 18th, 2013, 21:22   #3
vwztips
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Fuel issue?
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Old April 18th, 2013, 22:14   #4
Mikey2
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Have you checked that the coolant temp sensors show correct values ?
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Old April 19th, 2013, 07:13   #5
thundershorts
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fuel filter could be a source of an air leak, possibly due to a cheap unit, not bosch, mann or hengst quality
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Old April 19th, 2013, 09:51   #6
peiphil
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Mine done the exact same thing after I had done my BSM.
I dont have access to a vagcom so I just tried to watch very close with the cam timing etc.
Just like yours it would start up perfect cold but no way when warm.
I loosend the 3 bolts on the front of the cam and turned the cam anticlockwise ever so slightly.
A two foot long bar and socket only moved by a quarter inch.
Thats all it took and the car has worked perfect ever since
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Old April 19th, 2013, 17:51   #7
demhaizar
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Thank you all very much for the suggestions, I am posting screenshots from VCDS readout to maybe help........



The car was just started so the temp reading is low, and it started just fine.
If the battery was going bad, it should have low crank speed at least, It started with 2-3 turns of the starter.



Do you think the torsion value is okay?, should I attempt to adjust it to "0" or "-1", (maybe both) and see which setting works better.
When the BSM was done by Oil Hammer and crew, They checked the timing/torsion and it read "0" I saw it myself on the VCDS scan they did.
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Old April 19th, 2013, 18:43   #8
DanG144
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That torsion/timing value should be fine. I would not touch it.

Look at doing a log, a .csv file of MVB 005 while cranking when hot. That will tell us a lot.
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Old April 20th, 2013, 17:51   #9
DanG144
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After the engine cools, log a start attempt, please.

The following values are for interpreting MVB005 field 3. They are actually for a BEW PD, but a good working assumption is that they are the same for your BHW.

000
Basic initialization
001
Counter reset
002
Engine switched off or malfunction
003
Transitional states
004
Plausibility check phase
005
Plausibility check phase
006
Plausibility check phase
008
Plausibility check phase
016
Phase verification
032
Synchronization phase
033
System positioning
048
Calculation sequences activated
064
System waiting for engine stop
128
Dynamic plausibility check

I think that your engine is possibly seeing a difference in the crank and cam sensor, or is getting a bad signal from the crank sensor when hot.

A BEW cannot run without a crank sensor (on only the cam sensor), A BRM can. The BEW and the BRM can both run without the cam sensor. I have no idea about your BHW.

Note your MVB 004 field 4 value when hot running, just before shutdown, does it go to 0.0? If it does, that may indicate that the ECU is substituting a value in for the cam-crank difference - it does this when the sensors are not agreeing.

Try unplugging the cam sensor when trying the hot start. Log MVB 005.

Plug in the cam sensor, unplug the crank sensor when trying the hot start. Log MVB 005.

When the engine is cold do the same things, capturing the logs.

If you alter the name of the file (put hot no cam after the number but before the .csv) before you start logging it, then you can keep your data straight by using the different files.

I have seen several hot failures of the crank sensors, and they throw no codes. Not sure why. But I have added crank sensor failure to my list of "no code no start" potential problem list.
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Old April 20th, 2013, 18:21   #10
demhaizar
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My earlier post had incomplete data, some reason the snapshot only had part of the scan present, I did something incorrectly..... I don't know how to delete that post, anyways......Thanks again






Last edited by demhaizar; April 20th, 2013 at 19:07.
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Old April 20th, 2013, 18:38   #11
peiphil
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My thinking when mine did this was the warm engine let the Cam timing belt expand just that tiny bit to let the cam and crank sensors get out of sync.
Your 4th line over called syncronization goes from 48 down to 2 when it wont start I see.
Is that reading cam to crank sense?
Also others have posted about the ecm being capible of making its own torque readings when the cam is timed wrong and the engine is aready runnimg.
What I did to mine would have changed the cam timing by less than one degree and took less than 5 minutes to do
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Old April 20th, 2013, 18:39   #12
DanG144
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Please put those screen shots vertically, when you get a chance, just put an "enter" button press after each one.

You can delet your other post, if you wish, by opening it to edit (which is awkward to do with the screen this wide - look far right on the bottom), then choosing delete (far right on the bottom of the edit screen.)

This is a data file from a BEW whose only problem was no fuel.

Last edited by DanG144; April 20th, 2013 at 18:53.
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Old April 20th, 2013, 18:44   #13
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Phil, I don't think that would do anything in this case. If I remember correctly you did not know where you started from or where you ended up with on your cam to crank timing.

This one is showing almost perfect cam to crank timing when running. Stretching just a tad in either direction should have no impact on this one (it could if it were further off of nominal).

But I think that it is very likely that one sensor or the other is not able to restart after it gets hot. Probably the crank sensor.

But he can do the plug/unplug tests with minimal difficulty and complete reversibility. The adjustment is easy to do, but easy to get too far off as well. It may take several tries to get it back as close as it is now.

Last edited by DanG144; April 20th, 2013 at 18:56.
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Old April 20th, 2013, 18:50   #14
peiphil
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See you reposted very hard to read now but still looks like sync and torque changed at same time
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Old April 20th, 2013, 19:01   #15
DanG144
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Also, on the next log, could you hit the "turbo" button? that greatly increases the data logging frequency.
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