new TB tensioner does not match old one???

0die

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 29, 2012
Location
corpus christi, tx
TDI
1996 Passat wagon B4V
1996 B4 Passat...

the old tensioner that came off looks like the older style, pre-TDI....the one that arrived with my parts order has some type of spring thing for auto adjusting?

Is it possible the 96 was a "transition year"
 

0die

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 29, 2012
Location
corpus christi, tx
TDI
1996 Passat wagon B4V
the car has a 3/96 build date...i suppose it's possible VW was still using the older style tensioner on the early TDIs???

everything I reference shows the new style tensioner...but that is not what is on my car.

I'll try a pic on the mounting area but not sure what that will reveal...picture quality wise...
 

loganbmx4gt

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 14, 2011
Location
Jackson, TN
TDI
97' Passat (1Z), 02' Golf
I've worked on several early 96' 1z's and never seen that tensioner. Something isn't correct
 

0die

Veteran Member
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Nov 29, 2012
Location
corpus christi, tx
TDI
1996 Passat wagon B4V
I agree it's not correct...but there it is????

the correct tensioner is a slightly smaller diameter too I notice.
 

TDIDaveNH

Left Lane Coal Roller at Large
Joined
Feb 17, 2009
Location
North Conway, NH
TDI
1997 Passat TDI x2 1984 Buick Century 4.3 diesel
I just bought the car...the old tensioner is an SKF from Germany...the TB has been changed at least once since there are white marks painted on the sprockets...
the new tensioner does not fit over the mounting stud...I would doubt they swapped out the stud to make an old style tensioner work...
Hmmm...I looked at your pictures and first off, the nut and washer is not the correct fastener for the tensioner stud....it should be a flange nut with a 13mm head... same as what holds your windshield wiper arm on.

Next, the threads on the stud looks a little dodgey to me....can you measure them to verify they are in fact metric threads? The fit of the incorrect washer screams metric, but let's be sure about the threads.
Reason I ask this is due to the white painted marks on the sprockets, just trying to ascertain the degree of tooef that has gone on here.

Look at where the threads begin on the stud and see if that puts you within clamping range on the correct (shiny, black roller) tensioner. Reason for this is that I've heard of a case where a VW gasser tensioner stud was used on a TDI which did not allow for adequate clamping force because you simply run out of threads. This was not factory mind you, but an egregious tooef.

Since the stud you have is larger in diameter to what should be there, either;
A: the original stud threads became boogered and was replaced by drilling and tapping out for larger stud, thereby requiring the incorrect tensioner, or
B: The individual responsible for this work received the wrong tensioner and replaced the stud with an oversize incorrect stud to make it all work.
Both of these are extremely likely since you mention in the other thread the presence of white painted marks on the sprockets. Once you see that, you know prima facia the TB job was done stunningly wrong.
 

0die

Veteran Member
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Nov 29, 2012
Location
corpus christi, tx
TDI
1996 Passat wagon B4V
Yep...one the 101 forum I'm told it's a gasser or older IDI stud and tensioner....

I only hope I can extract the stud and fit the correct one in...

I fear that once I pull the stud I'll find that the head was drilled and tapped for the larger stud. then it will be hard, if not impossible to retro fit the correct stud and tensioner
 

schultp

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2008
Location
Michigan
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2010 Jetta Sportwagen, 6sp manual
Unless you could use one of the heli-coil or similar type of repair kits.
 

TDIDaveNH

Left Lane Coal Roller at Large
Joined
Feb 17, 2009
Location
North Conway, NH
TDI
1997 Passat TDI x2 1984 Buick Century 4.3 diesel
I don't know if I'd want to heli-coil it. It's just a spring. Time-serts are a step above given the important nature of the stud. Looking again at your pictures, it would appear that there is enough meat on the gasser stud to turn it down in a lathe and cut the correct size threads. That would be the preferred mechanical method is to manufacture a custom stud based on a new gasser/IDI stud of course

I know it sucks, but that right now seems to be the best, simplist way out of this without the job metastasizing exponentially. :(

On second thought, a Time-sert may be available to do a direct step-down:
https://www.belmetric.com/timesert-thread-repair-®-timesert-metric-kits-inserts-c-217_218.html
I'm not sure of the size of either of the studs but check into what is available once you know the size and pitch of the head hole.

Just found these too:
https://www.belmetric.com/metric-studs-metric-step-studs-68910mm-c-9_73.html

At any rate Odie, let us know how you fare
 
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ToddA1

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 3, 2011
Location
NJ 08002
TDI
'96 B4V, '97 B4 (sold), '97 Jetta (scrapped)
Yup, as you've figured out you have the old IDI style tensioner. It's a lot cheaper than the self adjusting one. I kinda find it funny that none of the TDI guys have seen it.

Hopefully, the large stud is metric. I wouldn't sweat using a Heli Coil. They've been around forever, they work and make the threaded hole stronger. You may get lucky... thread the Heli Coil in, and then the correct metric stud. Done deal.

-Todd
 

rotarykid

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 27, 2003
Location
Piedmont of N.C. & the plains of Colorado
TDI
1997 Passat TDI White,99.5 Blue Jetta TDI
I haven't seen this setup on a TDI but the 1.9 eco TD IDI used this setup on the early models, same architecture . I have this setup on my eco td transplant, the change interval would not be that much different if someone applied this tech to the 1Z engine. I don't know about cheaper though...

And on going back to the correct setup if the hole is small enough a helicoil should fit the bill. I have used them in all sorts of applications over the years successfully.

If you want to just stay with this design look up the part numbers for the 1993/94 older design Jetta/Golf 1.9 L Eco-TD IDI.
 

Abacus

That helpful B4 guy
Joined
Nov 10, 2007
Location
Relocated from Maine to Dewey, AZ
TDI
Only the B4V left
the car has a 3/96 build date...i suppose it's possible VW was still using the older style tensioner on the early TDIs???
No. I have two TDI's with build dates in 1995 (one in Oct) and they use the correct tensioner.

Why would someone go through the hassle when they could just buy the right part in the first place.
 

yakko

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2010
Location
Wappingers Falls, NY
TDI
PASSAT 96,97
Looks like some one wanted to use a 100,000 mile belt like the IDI motor.
I have heard of some one using the older belt some how. I think there is a belt that has a longer life.

Randy
 

0die

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 29, 2012
Location
corpus christi, tx
TDI
1996 Passat wagon B4V
went to the VW dealer to get the right tensioner stud....VW shows a split year for 96 Passat TDI...early is the old 10mm stud and old style tensioner...later VINs use the 8mm stud and auto tensioner....

I didn't have my VIN handy so I gotta go back tomorrow and have them decode it...but I'm guessing it's the early one. build date is 3/96.

If so...is it possible to retrofit the newer style tensioner? Judging from the dealer schematics...both studs seem to be 10mm in the head...only the tensioner end is either 8 or 10mm....but they are also different lenghts? one tensioner does appear a bit wider where the bolt goes through.
 

ToddA1

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 3, 2011
Location
NJ 08002
TDI
'96 B4V, '97 B4 (sold), '97 Jetta (scrapped)
Not the most optimistic phrase to use, when dealing with the timing belt & components, hehe

I still wonder how the old tensioner locked into place, without the metal tab on the back. Maybe it doesn't "auto-tension", and thus doesn't need the tab?
The "lucky" part was referring to the current stud still being metric, haha. The PO of my car told me the TB job was just done, but I changed it to be safe. I wasn't taking a chance of losing an engine over $75.

Correct. The older style tensioners were never auto adjusting. It was something you periodically checked.


went to the VW dealer to get the right tensioner stud....VW shows a split year for 96 Passat TDI...early is the old 10mm stud and old style tensioner...later VINs use the 8mm stud and auto tensioner....
When I did my TB job, I don't recall there being a choice of tensioners other than brand. What you wrote makes things easier and relates to my earlier post.

The Helicoil would just be stepping down the thread size from 10mm to 8mm. All you'd need to do is get a 8mm stud and shouldered nut (or nut and lock washer) with the corresponding thread pitch. Done deal.

-Todd
 

0die

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 29, 2012
Location
corpus christi, tx
TDI
1996 Passat wagon B4V
VW lists the "newer stud" as N 014 408 3 with a remark "M10XM8X62".

the older style AAZ engine stud is "M10X45"

judging by the VW listing all 1Z and AHU are new style and AZZ engine are either.

either way, both studs seem to have the 10mm mount in the head. I still need to verify my engine type...but looks like I will be able to swap the mounting stud and tensioner out...assuming there are no other strange differences
 

Abacus

That helpful B4 guy
Joined
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Location
Relocated from Maine to Dewey, AZ
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Only the B4V left
This is typical. The AAZ was only available in Canada, not in the US, yet it's still on the books. It's like them always asking if I have the auto transmission in my '97 B4TDI when they never existed.

You have a 1Z engine unless someone swapped in something different. I have the AHU in my '97 but all my '96's are 1Z's as well. They are virtually identical for all intents.

If you had a swapped in AAZ, then you would have a throttle cable and it wouldn't be a TDI, it would be an IDI.
 
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0die

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 29, 2012
Location
corpus christi, tx
TDI
1996 Passat wagon B4V
No throttle cable. That was like the first thing I noticed when looking at the car. I've never really looked at any TDI until I bought this one. The missing throttle cable really surprized me...i didn't know the TDIs didn't have a cable.

Is it possible they just swapped the long block? Or maybe the head?

I should probably start an AZZ identification thread??? figure out what I have, then figure out the tensioner...
 

Abacus

That helpful B4 guy
Joined
Nov 10, 2007
Location
Relocated from Maine to Dewey, AZ
TDI
Only the B4V left
Trust me, I'm sure you have a 1Z. If you have an EGR cooler and the turbo oil feed like off the oil filter and not the head, then you have an AHU. If you had an AAZ you wouldn't have a computer since they're all mechanical.
 
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0die

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 29, 2012
Location
corpus christi, tx
TDI
1996 Passat wagon B4V
not gonna run back outside again tonight...but i'm pretty sure I noticed an oil line off the back of the head...and there is computer and sensor crap everywhere...I didn't know the TDIs were that computerized. I always thought just the IP was electronic
 

Abacus

That helpful B4 guy
Joined
Nov 10, 2007
Location
Relocated from Maine to Dewey, AZ
TDI
Only the B4V left
Definitely a 1Z then.

Quite a bit of it is electronic and the ECU adjusts the car as conditions change. Most of it on our cars is quite robust and long lasting, so long as it isn't too badly neglected. Good parts, good fluids, and a good maintenance schedule will allow the car to stay running very well into the hundreds of thousands of miles and still return great performance and fuel economy.
 

0die

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Nov 29, 2012
Location
corpus christi, tx
TDI
1996 Passat wagon B4V
I hope so. This is a "for life" car for me. Been wanting a VW diesel wagon for years...I love my old Merc wagons but not the MPGs....
 
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