www.tdiclub.com

Economy - Longevity - Performance
The #1 Source of TDI Information on the Web!
Forums Articles Links Meets
Orders TDI Club Cards TDIFest 2016 Gone, but not forgotten VAG-Com List Unit Conversions TDIClub Chat Thank You




Go Back   TDIClub Forums > VW TDI Discussion Areas > TDI 101

TDI 101 Got a simple/basic TDI question? Are you a newbie (new to the forums). Feel free to post your question here.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old July 7th, 2017, 03:11   #46
UhOh
Veteran Member
 
UhOh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: PNW
Default

Not sure if I'd mentioned it previously, but there was a reason why the mounts were designed like they were (highly questionable as it may appear), and that's for safety, for engine breakaway in collisions. I don't have the capacity (resources, including mental) to figure out what changes a changed mount like this presents to the breakaway function, but for sure it's altered. Mind you, I prefer the strategy of not testing, of not hitting anything in order to find out how either this "design" OR VW's operates!
UhOh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 7th, 2017, 23:11   #47
jokila
 
jokila's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Houston, Texas
Fuel Economy: 52/45/40
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by UhOh View Post
Not sure if I'd mentioned it previously, but there was a reason why the mounts were designed like they were (highly questionable as it may appear), and that's for safety, for engine breakaway in collisions. I don't have the capacity (resources, including mental) to figure out what changes a changed mount like this presents to the breakaway function, but for sure it's altered. Mind you, I prefer the strategy of not testing, of not hitting anything in order to find out how either this "design" OR VW's operates!
Yeah. I have wondered that myself.
__________________
Ventecomy | Heated seat lighted switch | W8 light |
Blue tint aspherical tinted mirrors | Turn signal convenience | Euro Light Switch | Rear Fog Light | DrawTite Hitch | HIDs | 520 injectors | Engine Cover mod light |
VCDS-HEX/CAN & VagTacho available Houston metro area.
jokila is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 10th, 2017, 06:53   #48
Wingnut
Veteran Member
 
Wingnut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Toronto & Whitby
Fuel Economy: 4.5L/100km
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GallowayChicago View Post
There are basically three ways to fix a stripped motor mount:
- (1) Replace it with a new one [expensive]
- (2) drill, tap and pray [lots of labor]
- (3) make it work 100% by using nuts [never worry about mount again]

038 199 207 H - Repair aluminum thread failure by cutting a slot for a nut. Works wonderfully. Permanent Fix





full youtube videohttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_SO3SSK1RI
How do you get a tool in there to hold the bottom nuts while torquing the bolts? Can maybe be done on a bench, but not in the car.

I have to disagree with your claim that the drill & tap repair is "lots of labor" It's a 10 minute job. There certainly is a lot more labor time to cut those slots in the mount to accept the nuts.

I agree that the cost of the time sert tool is expensive and if you are just doing 1 mount, the cost to buy a new mount makes sense. But there are options after buying and using the tool. Repair more mounts at $5 worth of inserts each. Or sell the tool to recoup some $$$.
__________________
Moving? Need boxes?
Go green and check out FROGBOX.com


Old Ride (2000 Black Sedan): Gone

New Ride: (2003 Silver Wagon): Malone Tuned, T4 injectors, 11mm pump, 2.5" Magnaflow cat back, PD150 intake, OMI, Wingnut SS, ERF 6 speed, Bilstein TC Sport susp. w/GTI springs, Neuspeed RSB, Santa Monica's, Autometer Cobalt Boost & EGT, MFA Sport cluster, GLI Leather seats, SS vacuum lines, AVIC Z3 Nav and I still get 4.5L/100km (I got 3.9L/100k on a tank once)
Some handy 'How to's'
Wingnut is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 10th, 2017, 13:51   #49
GallowayChicago
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Chicago
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wingnut View Post
How do you get a tool in there to hold the bottom nuts while torquing the bolts? Can maybe be done on a bench, but not in the car.

I have to disagree with your claim that the drill & tap repair is "lots of labor" It's a 10 minute job. There certainly is a lot more labor time to cut those slots in the mount to accept the nuts.

I agree that the cost of the time sert tool is expensive and if you are just doing 1 mount, the cost to buy a new mount makes sense. But there are options after buying and using the tool. Repair more mounts at $5 worth of inserts each. Or sell the tool to recoup some $$$.
Wingnut; There seems to be a miscommunication for which I do apologize. The YouTube video would answer all your questions and it is only 8-mins long (I made it to better show the assembly).

The slot for the nut, in the motor mount, is cut as a snug box and the nut that is used is one of the types with a large ring or hat brim on it. The ring is ground down to form a key or elongated area. This key is what stops the nut from turning in the slot. The slot, with the nut in it, was then sealed with black RTV to stop oxidation. When you finally go to install the mount on the auto you do not need to insert any tools in the nut hold to keep it from rotating and you can torque down to the OEM requires specs without being concerned that it will ever strip. You are correct about the cost vs labor aspect of doing this repair, but over all other repairs or even replacement, this one is MOST SECURE.

closed up of nut from video

full youtube video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_SO3SSK1RI
__________________
TDI Love From Chicago...

Last edited by GallowayChicago; July 10th, 2017 at 13:53.
GallowayChicago is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 11th, 2017, 09:31   #50
jokila
 
jokila's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Houston, Texas
Fuel Economy: 52/45/40
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wingnut View Post
How do you get a tool in there to hold the bottom nuts while torquing the bolts? Can maybe be done on a bench, but not in the car.

I have to disagree with your claim that the drill & tap repair is "lots of labor" It's a 10 minute job. There certainly is a lot more labor time to cut those slots in the mount to accept the nuts.

I agree that the cost of the time sert tool is expensive and if you are just doing 1 mount, the cost to buy a new mount makes sense. But there are options after buying and using the tool. Repair more mounts at $5 worth of inserts each. Or sell the tool to recoup some $$$.
I agree with all your points.

I also changed my method when torquing those two 18mm bolts. I use several stages to get to final instead of the two in the past. I had one bolt let go when after I had torqued the other bolt which left me in a tough jam if i were to undo the bolt to make more room to install the timesert. There was enough room, but it was involved to say the least.
__________________
Ventecomy | Heated seat lighted switch | W8 light |
Blue tint aspherical tinted mirrors | Turn signal convenience | Euro Light Switch | Rear Fog Light | DrawTite Hitch | HIDs | 520 injectors | Engine Cover mod light |
VCDS-HEX/CAN & VagTacho available Houston metro area.

Last edited by jokila; July 11th, 2017 at 20:26.
jokila is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 11th, 2017, 16:50   #51
MadScience
Veteran Member
Default

Great thread. With the newer vertical engine mount bolts requiring 74ftlbs and no 1/4 turn, does that mean they are not TTY bolts? Can they be reused?
MadScience is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 4th, 2017, 12:13   #52
Shello
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Surrey
Default

@ Franko6 would you suggest stopping the 1/4 turn process on the 3 horizontal 16mm bolts on the transmission mount bracket after the suggested 37 ft lbs?
Shello is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 2nd, 2018, 07:52   #53
Franko6
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Sw Missouri
Default

Shello,

Sorry, but I just saw this question. There seems to be a bit of confusion, as bolt head is not the way to identify a bolt. It's shaft size, thread pitch and length. I will identify shaft size.

The only bolt I torque to 35 ft lbs are the vertical 10mm(?) 2 bolts (16mm bolt head) that hold the body mount to the body itself. The three 10mm bolts (also 16mm bolt heads..) for the engine mount, I torque to a straight 45 ft lbs. The Vertical 12mm bolts (18mm head) I torque to 65 ft lbs.

I realize there is some who will cry 'FOUL!' for going against the grain on 'spec', but we particularly do not like stripping engine mount bolts. We also do not like over-tightening what is in all intents and purposes, NOT a torque to yield bolt.

As for how we use Recoils, we use a double depth recoil, that goes from the very top, to the very bottom of the bolt hole for the vertical engine mount repair. They do not make a single recoil that fits, so we bought 'specials' that are 15mm length. The bolt hole is drilled as far as we can without breaking through to the bottom of the hole. I wish I had a 'bottoming tap' for the weird size recoil thread, so we could use the recoil at full depth, but we have to stop where the recoil binds with the first recoil, then stack the next on top of it.

As a matter of threading principle, aluminum threads should be a minimum of 2x the length compared to the diameter of the threads; i.e., 12mm x 2 = 24mm and we use a 30mm depth. Not really overkill... If you stick to my torques, they will not pull out.

I like the idea of sealing the threads. We use a aluminum wiring paste that has anti-corrosion grease in a nickel base. It stays put and keeps out corrosion. We use the same stuff for glow plugs, wheel nuts, acorn grounding nuts, etc.

What is interesting is later model engine mounts come with Timeserts, which are quite deep. Still, if you over-stress them and they will pull out.

Engineering of these 'systems' is quite remarkable. I can honestly say, I'm alive today because a Jetta sacrificed it's life to save mine. The point being, don't mess with a connection whose design is to fail in a catastrophic incident and in a way that may save your butt.
__________________
Frank's VW TDI's, LLC
1007 Olive St.
Lockwood, MO 65682
417-232-4634
FranksTDIs@sbcglobal.net

'02 80k grey leather, 99.5 R.I.P 153k
'85A2 NA 375k, '91 A3 290k Always Silver, Always a Jetta

Last edited by Franko6; February 2nd, 2018 at 07:55.
Franko6 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old February 2nd, 2018, 09:06   #54
Vince Waldon
Veteran Member
 
Vince Waldon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Franko6 View Post
Engineering of these 'systems' is quite remarkable. I can honestly say, I'm alive today because a Jetta sacrificed it's life to save mine. The point being, don't mess with a connection whose design is to fail in a catastrophic incident and in a way that may save your butt.
This. A thousand times this.

Although it's true that engineers are constantly weighing cost in their designs... and thus sometimes they do things to save a penny across the millions of cars that roll off the assembly lines... they almost always think safety first (and then argue with the accountants later if need be. )

So, one man's "wow this is a crappy flimsy design" could be another man's "thank gawd it sacrificed itself to save my life". And we weekend warriors are not always in full possession of the design goals...so worth thinking about as we do our various "improvements".

That said, not sure what was up with their door module designer and their armrest latch designer and their fender foam designer and their rear brake caliper designer and their...
__________________
Vince Waldon Edmonton AB Canada

Note: The above is to the best of my knowledge- but at the end of the day simply interweb opinion, worth EXACTLY what you paid for it, and if used done so at your own risk.
Vince Waldon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 2nd, 2018, 22:52   #55
strangersfaces
Newbie
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Oregon
Default

When I had the motorcycle shop we used Keen-serts, as used in aerospace applications, for most thread repairs, with never a failure. Still use them on the odd occasion when repairs are needed, though the similarly designed Acme inserts seem beefier still and may be worth further investigation...

Last edited by strangersfaces; February 2nd, 2018 at 23:06.
strangersfaces is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 3rd, 2018, 02:36   #56
vincej
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Calgary
Default

As Helicoil inserts can be quite short I have occasionally successfully used two in the same hole, one on top of the other. The solid insert repair looks really good though.

To maintain the integrity a part that requires removal of bolts over numerous repairs VW should have designed them with inserts out of the factory. Of course if they had a chain rather than a belt not so many repairs would be needed.
vincej is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 4th, 2018, 22:13   #57
turbovan+tdi
Veteran Member
 
turbovan+tdi's Avatar
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by UhOh View Post
Not sure if I'd mentioned it previously, but there was a reason why the mounts were designed like they were (highly questionable as it may appear), and that's for safety, for engine breakaway in collisions. I don't have the capacity (resources, including mental) to figure out what changes a changed mount like this presents to the breakaway function, but for sure it's altered. Mind you, I prefer the strategy of not testing, of not hitting anything in order to find out how either this "design" OR VW's operates!
You are correct, the mounts actually break, not the bracket. I have an 03 Wagon with a 1.8T engine, hit hard in the front, it broke off both side motor mounts, the brackets are intact.
__________________
1984 6.2 Diesel Get A Way van, remote turbo setup designed/installed by me, burning anything that burns.
2003 GSW, 2.0L ALH, Stage 2 Colt Cam, 1756 turbo, auto, silver, 380k-Wife's.
2004 GSW TDI, blue, 5 speed-DD-Malone stage 2, no kitty, aeroturbine muffler, PD150's.
2003 JSW 1.8T, silver-parting out. 2006 JSW, TDI 5 speed, blue.
turbovan+tdi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 5th, 2018, 08:03   #58
Franko6
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Sw Missouri
Default

Strangerfaces, there are several things about that thread repair and the reason we don't use them. 1) They are more expensive 2) They don't come in 30mm length as far as I can see. This is important, as the thread contact to the aluminum will pull out if it's not long enough, And 3) we have repaired many, and as I have already pointed out, vincej, we specifically use a 15mm recoils and put in two. They do stack nicely.

In the collision I had, the mount broke at the transmission side at the body. Smaller bolts gave out first. The body to engine connection was wrecked also where the bent and pulled out. What really did me service was the door curtain and the seat air bag. It was a sideways strike. The steering wheel bag never went off, which was a surprise.
__________________
Frank's VW TDI's, LLC
1007 Olive St.
Lockwood, MO 65682
417-232-4634
FranksTDIs@sbcglobal.net

'02 80k grey leather, 99.5 R.I.P 153k
'85A2 NA 375k, '91 A3 290k Always Silver, Always a Jetta
Franko6 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old February 8th, 2018, 10:30   #59
turbovan+tdi
Veteran Member
 
turbovan+tdi's Avatar
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Franko6 View Post
What really did me service was the door curtain and the seat air bag. It was a sideways strike. The steering wheel bag never went off, which was a surprise.
Its weird, some accidents you'd swear the air bags should have gone off but don't and vice versa,
__________________
1984 6.2 Diesel Get A Way van, remote turbo setup designed/installed by me, burning anything that burns.
2003 GSW, 2.0L ALH, Stage 2 Colt Cam, 1756 turbo, auto, silver, 380k-Wife's.
2004 GSW TDI, blue, 5 speed-DD-Malone stage 2, no kitty, aeroturbine muffler, PD150's.
2003 JSW 1.8T, silver-parting out. 2006 JSW, TDI 5 speed, blue.
turbovan+tdi is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Engine support mount thread stripped when doing TB DeafBug VW MKIV-A4 TDIs (VE and PD) 29 May 20th, 2016 16:48
Pictorial: Repair Engine Mount in Place Franko6 TDI 101 10 January 19th, 2015 05:21
TimeSert Engine/Tranny Mount Thread Repair, W/ Pictures PDJetta TDI 101 9 September 20th, 2012 16:04
DSG Bottom Bolt Hole thread repair - Bolt Thread Size Donald Holder VW MKV-A5 Golf/Jettas 1 June 1st, 2011 19:07
Rear engine mount: gearbox thread stripped Trog thou Meatier TDI 101 13 September 27th, 2007 10:38


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:03.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright - TDIClub Online LTD - 2017
Contact Us | Privacy Statement | Forum Rules | Disclaimer
TDIClub Online Ltd (TDIClub.com) is not affiliated with the VWoA or VWAG and is supported by contributions from viewers like you.
1996 - 2017, All Rights Reserved
Page generated in 0.18228 seconds with 10 queries
[Output: 136.69 Kb. compressed to 115.83 Kb. by saving 20.85 Kb. (15.26%)]