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Go Back   TDIClub Forums > VW TDI Discussion Areas > Alternative Diesel Fuels (Biodiesel, WVO, SVO, BTL, GTL etc)

Alternative Diesel Fuels (Biodiesel, WVO, SVO, BTL, GTL etc) Discussions about alternative fuels for use in our TDI's. This includes biodiesel WVO (Waste Vegetable Oil), SVO (Straight Vegetable Oil), BTL (Biomass to Liquid), GTL (Gas to Liquids) etc. Please note the Fuel Disclaimer.

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Old August 14th, 2012, 07:31   #1
Kai
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Default VW's latest response about biodiesel in TDI

Every so often I call, write, or email VWofA inquiring about biodiesel usage in the current model TDIs. I own 2004 and 2006 Jetta TDIs and have run them mostly on B100. I ordered a new Jetta TDI Sportwagen, but did not purchase it when I learned that the TDI JSW would not run any significant blend of biodiesel fuel. I love the JSW and was really disappointed . . .
This is my latest question to VW:
Is VW going to change the TDI motor to accommodate owners in states that mandate higher percentages of biodiesel at the pump than 5%? The TDI owner's manual says use of any higher blend than B5 can void the warranty, yet in some states B5 or less may not even available.
This is VW's answer:
Volkswagen is currently researching the suitability of higher percentage biodiesel blends; however, no conclusive decision has been reached at this time. Your feedback has been noted here at VW of America, and customer feedback is always an important factor in the production of future US models.
If you have any further questions, please feel free to contact Volkswagen Customer CARE at 1-800-822-8987, Monday through Friday, 8 a.m. - 6 p.m. your local time.
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Old August 20th, 2012, 17:11   #2
TomB
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kai View Post
Every so often I call, write, or email VWofA inquiring about biodiesel usage in the current model TDIs. I own 2004 and 2006 Jetta TDIs and have run them mostly on B100. I ordered a new Jetta TDI Sportwagen, but did not purchase it when I learned that the TDI JSW would not run any significant blend of biodiesel fuel. I love the JSW and was really disappointed . . .
This is my latest question to VW:
Is VW going to change the TDI motor to accommodate owners in states that mandate higher percentages of biodiesel at the pump than 5%? The TDI owner's manual says use of any higher blend than B5 can void the warranty, yet in some states B5 or less may not even available.
This is VW's answer:
Volkswagen is currently researching the suitability of higher percentage biodiesel blends; however, no conclusive decision has been reached at this time. Your feedback has been noted here at VW of America, and customer feedback is always an important factor in the production of future US models.
If you have any further questions, please feel free to contact Volkswagen Customer CARE at 1-800-822-8987, Monday through Friday, 8 a.m. - 6 p.m. your local time.
Bottom line is NO. We have known that for quite a while. Calling customer service on this issue is pointless. The emissions equipment and the engineers do not want to change anything at this time since it costs $$$$.
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Old August 26th, 2012, 17:39   #3
highender
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VW states that with newer models, NO MORE than 5% biodiesel is allowed.

With the issues of the HPFP,. VW may even deny warranty on the engine if the fuel in your fuel tank exceeds 5%. Then you would be stuck with the $8000 to $10,000 repair bill.

I would not exceed 5% biodiesel in my 2012 VW jetta tdi.

I do think a little bit of biodiesel , way less than 5 % , would help lubricate the HPFP without getting into problems with warranty.

This is just my opinion, which may be wrong. Your opinion may vary ( YOMV).
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Old September 1st, 2012, 08:33   #4
hamilton7550
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Default WalMart bio diesel

I noticed at my local WalMart that the diesel pump now "warns" that 10 -20 % biodiesel may be in the pump tank...it's like an ethanol "warning" sticker.
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Old September 1st, 2012, 10:26   #5
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Originally Posted by hamilton7550 View Post
I noticed at my local WalMart that the diesel pump now "warns" that 10 -20 % biodiesel may be in the pump tank...it's like an ethanol "warning" sticker.
States that are Mandating higher than 5% Bio-Diesel, while Knowing FULL WELL that VW Does not approve? ***
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Old September 1st, 2012, 11:10   #6
tditom
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Originally Posted by Dieselfitter View Post
States that are Mandating higher than 5% Bio-Diesel, while Knowing FULL WELL that VW Does not approve? ***
I'm not sure if that is the case in Alabama, but it is true that some states are targeting higher and higher SME biodiesel content.

It would be one thing if VW were the only one, but MB and BMW along with a couple of US engine manufacturers also limit to 5% SME biodiesel.

Hopefully algae based alternative fuel will be price competitive someday, but in the meantime some states will really be limiting the operation of new diesels in their area.
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Old September 1st, 2012, 11:30   #7
Bob_Fout
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dieselfitter View Post
States that are Mandating higher than 5% Bio-Diesel, while Knowing FULL WELL that VW Does not approve? ***
Quote:
Originally Posted by tditom View Post
I'm not sure if that is the case in Alabama, but it is true that some states are targeting higher and higher SME biodiesel content.

It would be one thing if VW were the only one, but MB and BMW along with a couple of US engine manufacturers also limit to 5% SME biodiesel.

Hopefully algae based alternative fuel will be price competitive someday, but in the meantime some states will really be limiting the operation of new diesels in their area.
Gents,

TDIs (and other light-duty pax diesels) are such a small number of diesels in the US, they really don't care if VW (or BMW or MB) approves or not. B20 is approved for most medium and heavy duty diesels.
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Old September 1st, 2012, 11:48   #8
tditom
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http://www.biodiesel.org/docs/ffs-en...s.pdf?sfvrsn=8

Kenworth and Peterbilt are two big names in hd diesel that are currently limited to B5.
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Old September 1st, 2012, 14:58   #9
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Originally Posted by tditom View Post
http://www.biodiesel.org/docs/ffs-en...s.pdf?sfvrsn=8

Kenworth and Peterbilt are two big names in hd diesel that are currently limited to B5.
And Cummins allows B20 (even some of the HD engines), along with Powerstroke, and Duramax. International, DD, Freightliner, and a bunch more. There's more in the B20 column than the B5 and B100.

VW, MB and BMW have no bearing on diesel in the US. Look at our cetane...
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Last edited by Bob_Fout; September 1st, 2012 at 15:02.
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Old September 3rd, 2012, 12:20   #10
cookeze
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Default

I realize this has been discussed at length, but I need to find some clarity on the biodiesel issue. Here in California, a biodiesel mix is not required, however B20 is pretty available. Propel Fuels indicates that many diesel manufactures like; GM, Ford, Chrysler & Cat approve the use of B20 even in their urea equipped vehicles. Propel says they have run extensive test using B20 and the fuel dilution issue just isn’t a problem. They’ve published a paper on this. It seems that HPFP issues would be reduced with the improved lubricity of biodiesel. Granted 2% or so is sufficient, but B20 is still beneficial so why not allow it.
The larger confusing issue to me is how can VW sell TDI’s in states like Illinois that require diesel fuel contain greater than 5% biodiesel. Is the VW warranty void or not? If it isn’t voided, then how can it be void at more than 5% in other states?
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Old September 3rd, 2012, 12:28   #11
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Originally Posted by Bob_Fout View Post
........................


VW, MB and BMW have no bearing on diesel in the US. Look at our cetane...

Cetane in Canada is min. 40
Germany 60
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Old September 3rd, 2012, 14:00   #12
tditom
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Originally Posted by cookeze View Post
I realize this has been discussed at length, but I need to find some clarity on the biodiesel issue. Here in California, a biodiesel mix is not required, however B20 is pretty available. Propel Fuels indicates that many diesel manufactures like; GM, Ford, Chrysler & Cat approve the use of B20 even in their urea equipped vehicles. Propel says they have run extensive test using B20 and the fuel dilution issue just isn’t a problem. They’ve published a paper on this. It seems that HPFP issues would be reduced with the improved lubricity of biodiesel. Granted 2% or so is sufficient, but B20 is still beneficial so why not allow it.
The larger confusing issue to me is how can VW sell TDI’s in states like Illinois that require diesel fuel contain greater than 5% biodiesel. Is the VW warranty void or not? If it isn’t voided, then how can it be void at more than 5% in other states?
This is inaccurate. IL does not mandate >5%, they just have incentives for higher bd level. I know MN had a plan to mandate > B5 in the next few years, but that may be on hold.

Nothing to be confused about- your 2012 VW is still under warranty and if you run > B5 and subsequently have a problem, then VW will not cover it.

The future is in renewable diesel. SME biodiesel is not the answer. Hopefully we can see biomass diesel develop and scale up to be cost competitive in the next 5-10 yrs.
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Old September 3rd, 2012, 14:02   #13
tditom
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Originally Posted by TDI smile View Post
Cetane in Canada is min. 40
Germany 60
False. EN 590 mandates a cetane index of 46 and a cetane number of 51.
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Old September 4th, 2012, 12:29   #14
armylifer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cookeze View Post
I realize this has been discussed at length, but I need to find some clarity on the biodiesel issue. Here in California, a biodiesel mix is not required, however B20 is pretty available. Propel Fuels indicates that many diesel manufactures like; GM, Ford, Chrysler & Cat approve the use of B20 even in their urea equipped vehicles. Propel says they have run extensive test using B20 and the fuel dilution issue just isn’t a problem. They’ve published a paper on this. It seems that HPFP issues would be reduced with the improved lubricity of biodiesel. Granted 2% or so is sufficient, but B20 is still beneficial so why not allow it.
The larger confusing issue to me is how can VW sell TDI’s in states like Illinois that require diesel fuel contain greater than 5% biodiesel. Is the VW warranty void or not? If it isn’t voided, then how can it be void at more than 5% in other states?
I'd like to see what manual you are reading regarding your statement about GM allowing more than 5% biodiesel. My GM manual for my Duramax LMM engine says; "Biodiesel is produced from
vegetable oils or animal fat that have been chemically
modified to reduce the possibility of damage to your fuel
system and engine. Higher concentration (i.e., greater
than B5) biodiesel-containing fuels or the use of
unmodified bio-oils blended into diesel fuel at any
concentration is not recommended and could damage
your fuel system and engine. Such damage would not be
covered by your warranty. If there are questions about
the biodiesel-containing fuels you are using, contact your
fuel supplier.
"

It's pretty clear to me that GM does not approve of biodiesel in any amount greater than 5%. I just called a friend of mine that owns a 2009 Ford with a Powerstroke engine and he says his manual also specifies no biodiesel greater than 5% too.

I'm not trying to call you out on your statement but I really want to know where you got your information from.
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Old September 4th, 2012, 12:38   #15
Honeydew
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Originally Posted by armylifer View Post
I just called a friend of mine that owns a 2009 Ford with a Powerstroke engine and he says his manual also specifies no biodiesel greater than 5% too.

I'm not trying to call you out on your statement but I really want to know where you got your information from.
I don't know about the other makes but the 09 PSD is the previous generation engine (6.4L) without urea. The 2011-on 6.7L PSDs have urea injection and allow up to 20% bio, it's even on the door badge.
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