Looking for advice on the next step of my performance build

Looking for some advice on my performance build.

Current Setup:
Motor: PD130 ASZ with approximately 100 000km’s on it (stock but has a stage 2 colt cam for the last 30 000km’s)
Turbo: GTB2260VK
Exhaust: 3” turbo back (cat less)
Intercooler: FMIC 2.5” piping
Transmission: Stock PD100 5 speed with a stage 2 Southbend clutch (approx 408 000km’s on the transmission and 50 000km’s on the clutch)
Suspension: Hotbits DT1 coilovers
Brakes: GLI 312mm front brakes and 256mm Rears
Engine Tuning: Malone software running @ 30PSI

My last dyno ran 330tq@235whp. Peak torque was somewhere around 425 ft lbs. Peak hp was @ 3800rpm. Setup smokes like a train at full throttle. EGT’s still stay below 1600*F. Unable to measure EMP’s.

My question to the group here is now that I’ve found a set of Firad 80% nozzles to fuel my turbo – what should I be looking to spend on next?
My goal was to break the 300hp mark as a daily driver. RyanP has connecting rods for sale on his website, but in the motor I have do I need them for my goal?
In a previous thread about cams, it was brought to my attention about valve springs and that I should upgrade those too. At what boost pressure do the stock springs become too soft?
Is anyone still running a stock PD100 5 speed transmission pushing 300hp? Can it even hold that much power?

Any and all advice is appreciated

I personally think 300WHP on a stock bottom end will be impossible. There are a number of European guys running 300BHP or ~240-260WHP(my estimate). Turbo Johan has tuned a number of these.
I wish I knew how to model PCP or at least how it behaved.

If you do any internal work, it wouldn't hurt to lower the CR of the pistons, you're already at 19:1. I plan on taking my build down to 16.5-17:1

You already know this but your stock pd150 injectors are your bottleneck. +80% or even +100% nozzles would increase that ability quite a bit. I assume your train smoke is due to the crazy duration you are running on those nozzles. I think the ones in Europe that are running 300bhp are mostly running R783(~+60% I think) and duration was pretty crazy if I remember correctly. OCTDI is also in this range with R783 nozzles.

I will be using Rosten I-beam rods for my torque goal of ~500ft-lbs. H-beams aren't good for that however with a single turbo, H-beams are probably enough but I don't know if they are an upgrade as PD130 rods are already pretty strong.

In my spring calculations, it was either 28 or 32psi(would need to reference them) where the spring force equals the force against them due to intake pressures. There are other forces in the system but that is where I felt you've gone past your safe limits. I have heard of valves slapping pistons however I don't recall what conditions it happened.

Adding an EMP gauge would be a wise decision.

I'm interested in seeing where you go with this.

JFettig said:

I personally think 300WHP on a stock bottom end will be impossible. There are a number of European guys running 300BHP or ~240-260WHP(my estimate). Turbo Johan has tuned a number of these.
I wish I knew how to model PCP or at least how it behaved.

If you do any internal work, it wouldn't hurt to lower the CR of the pistons, you're already at 19:1. I plan on taking my build down to 16.5-17:1

You already know this but your stock pd150 injectors are your bottleneck. +80% or even +100% nozzles would increase that ability quite a bit. I assume your train smoke is due to the crazy duration you are running on those nozzles. I think the ones in Europe that are running 300bhp are mostly running R783(~+60% I think) and duration was pretty crazy if I remember correctly. OCTDI is also in this range with R783 nozzles.

I will be using Rosten I-beam rods for my torque goal of ~500ft-lbs. H-beams aren't good for that however with a single turbo, H-beams are probably enough but I don't know if they are an upgrade as PD130 rods are already pretty strong.

In my spring calculations, it was either 28 or 32psi(would need to reference them) where the spring force equals the force against them due to intake pressures. There are other forces in the system but that is where I felt you've gone past your safe limits. I have heard of valves slapping pistons however I don't recall what conditions it happened.

Adding an EMP gauge would be a wise decision.

I'm interested in seeing where you go with this.

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Ahh so that’s where my misunderstanding starts – I was under the impression that the guys running 300hp were doing that at the wheels. That’s a little disappointing to hear but still impressive to get that from a tiny 4 banger diesel.

My thoughts were to upgrade the rods and leave the stock CR the same – if I am to lower the CR on the PD ASZ piston, do I just get a machine shop to machine the pistons deeper? Or are BHW pistons with the larger displacement sufficient enough to lower the compression? My understanding of why you need to lower the compression ratio is only limited to “because now I can run more boost” the full mechanics of the whole thing eludes me. I’m venturing a guess that it has to do with reduced heat, reduced cylinder pressures, and also to help keep everything together.

Yea mark tells me that the smoke on my setup is due to the ridiculous injection duration I am running and that if I am to make any more power and less smoke I’d need to buy the larger injector nozzles to bring me back within anything considered acceptable.

Back when I used to own an ALH I was always told that the H-Beam rods were considered a bulletproof way to go in strengthening the bottom end. 500ft-lbs of torque seems like it’d be more of a comical achievement then anything practical. Half the reason I am able to keep the power on the floor as is, is part due to the boost lag between gears. If it wasn’t for that I'm sure the tires would make more smoke then the exhaust. I digress though, from what I’ve read the only way to run I-beam rods is to run the larger BHW pistons which kind of sucks seeing as I really had no intentions of running a 2L motor.

Would the valve spring rates for the BEW ASZ and ARL motor all be the same? Or is there a chance that VW beefed them up for the PD130’s and 150’s? I hadn’t even considered upgrading the springs as my thought process was that the forces inside the cylinder under compression would be larger than the force of compressed air behind the valve at all times. I'm not doubting you, I'm just looking for a little more clarification on where my thought process is flawed. I welcome your thoughts and insight into this.

What is the best way to run an EMP gauge? How do you keep the hot exhaust gasses from destroying the instrument?


any thoughts on the transmission?


Cheers

OmegaRenegade said:

EGT’s still stay below 1600*C.

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This is bad.

TDIMeister said:

This is bad.

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Thats all you have to add is his unit oops?

There is more involved to lower the CR, as I understand it, the pocket depth must stay the same and it gets wider. Maybe a combination of both? CR is reduced to reduce PCP. PCP is the compression pressures that act against the head and the pistons, through the rods and into the crank.

Rosten rods require PD pistons, PD150, 130, etc, not BHW pistons specifically.

500 ft-lbs is a comical achievement which I'm going to try with compound turbos

It appears that all 8 valve PDs run the same springs. I have a set of ASZ and BEW springs, they appear to be the same. The installed heights are the same.

EMP often spikes in many systems, I can imagine that there are conditions where the pressures under the valve is much lower than the pressures over the valve, enough to overpower the springs, maybe at the start of the intake stroke? I'd love to see some more theory on this. I don't want to find out the hard way.

EMP gauges are tapped into the manifold, a few feet of copper line is coiled up to cool the gasses, then a regular hose from the copper line to the gauge.
Quick google search found me this with some pics: http://www.thedieselgarage.com/forums/showthread.php?t=73200

thanks for all the useful information - from what it sounds like, i'll be running a conservative, smoke free tune with these new injectors and then start collecting the pennies to save for a more robust build. Or find a good used bottom end and start building that slowly in my basement until its ready to go into the car.

The lowering of the compression ratio's is the part that is deterring me at this point. I dont know enough about it to want to attempt it right now. I'd much rather take my time and know before hand what to anticipate then to have it all spring up at once.

I'll see what i can do re: EMP gauge - sounds like it'll be more of a setup kind of gauge and once you've ironed out all the kinks in the tuning you can get rid of it.

OmegaRenegade said:

The lowering of the compression ratio's is the part that is deterring me at this point. I dont know enough about it to want to attempt it right now. I'd much rather take my time and know before hand what to anticipate then to have it all spring up at once.

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A long but good read: Discussion on piston bowl shaping for reduced CR

JFettig said:

Thats all you have to add is his unit oops?

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Just guessing here but I'm pretty sure 1600* Celsius is way too freaking hot. Really just a way of pointing out that he wrote 1600*c instead of 1600*f

lol yea i meant Fahrenheit - just force of habit to write Celsius instead.

i'll check out that link - thanks for the heads up!

IMO, from what I've learned on these threads and from talking other TDI owners, I wouldn't lower the cr.

If you have a MASSIVE build up planned and you or your engine builder really knows what they are doing, then, maybe, lower the CR.

Someone on this forum had basically the same set up on an ALH as another member. One car dyno'd 200 hp and the other could only muster up about 168 hp, iirc. The only difference? : The 168 hp ALH had lower a compression ratio due to some PD150 pistons (or whatever). And, yes, both cars were run on the same dyno, same day.

There are, imo, a lot of unproven "performance" mods on these forums floating around.

FWIW, just another opinion,

df

from what i've been reading in that other thread about lowering compression via altering the pistons, i am less inclined to do it. Too much room for error and I dont feel comfortable or have enough faith in the diesel community in my area to complete such a task without issue. I cant do it myself so i'm left to the expertise of someone else. Since nothing is cut a dry it looks like the block might have to endure larger stress and higher compression then is ideal. If there was a place we could trust to get this done reliably then i might consider doing such a task.

AWD...nuff said.

dieselfuel said:

FWIW, just another opinion,

df

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pretty much

Kyle at Performance Diesel can lower the CR on your pistons. I don't think he likes working with used pistons though. I plan to do my own or have a buddy do it.

Are these goals even possible on a counter flow, single cam TDI head?

I have always heard that the head is the problem on these cars.

Look at what OCTDI lost when he went from his ported head, to the stock ARL head...

How about a twin cam, BKD head?

Evil-Diesel said:

AWD...nuff said.

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I've priced that option and cause i cant do the work myself works out to rediculous amounts of cash.

I've thought about porting the head but have not really heard of many sucess stories claiming it made things any/much better. I'll run a search for OCTDI's thread and see what his findings were. It sounds promising but i'm also assuming that he did all the other mods too (2L pistons, lower CR and big boosted turbo) I'm wondering if he had raised the boost a little and left stock CR and displacement if he would have lost the same amount of power when he put the Stock ARL head back on. At the level of modding it takes to make a high horsepower diesel all the extreme internal work supports itself off other mods, so lowering the CR and making the head flow better work well together. You loose power dropping the compression but you make up for it with more boost and a free'er flowing head. I'm just spitballing here and have no actual data to back that up, just running through the ideas in my head as to how/why things may have transpired.

Like others have mentioned it might be best to upgrade to a 2.0 16V BKD engine and a 6 speed trans to handle all the power.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=327591

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=343904

best bet would be an awd TT conversion with the newer common rail motor. Gut all the emissions crap out and really open her up.

Unfortunatley what i've got is this 8V lump which seems to be able to handle most of the abuse i've put through it this far. I'm more then likley going to end up massaging the head to make it flow better, stiffen the valve springs and then toss in a set of rosten H-beams. At that point i'll max out fueling and boost and see what i can put down. From there we just see how long it all stays together. I'll see if i cant get some pistons re-worked but at this point i dont feel confident that it can be done with any kind of reliability.Will have to talk to some engine builders/machinists to get a better feel for it else the CR will stay at 19:1.

Suppose i should also look into an engine girdle while the rods are getting put in too.