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TDI Power Enhancements Discussions about increasing the power of your TDI engine. i.e. chips, injectors, powerboxes, clutches, etc. Handling, suspensions, wheels, type discussion should be put into the "Upgrades (non TDI Engine related)" forum. Non TDI vehicle related postings will be moved or removed. Please note the Performance Disclaimer.

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Old June 11th, 2012, 09:42   #46
Dakta
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wow that's some pretty good info, I assume that's a matlab affair?
(my controller is nowhere near that complex lol). That said it's easy math to calculate a slope and proximity to setpoint so i'm sure dampening could be improved somewhat easily

What i'd probably do is have a subroutine that activates after a certain interval (after a new boost sample has taken place) and does a subtraction of the last measured boost sample from the current one, and that's your slope over the period (I know technically it's linear and boost could theoretically dip in that period, however with a high sample rate that becomes less important). You can then use that slope as a factor in how much you want the actuator to react against the pi terms etc can't ya. Typical D.

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Old June 11th, 2012, 09:50   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dakta View Post
wow that's some pretty good info, I assume that's a matlab affair?
It was done in GT-POWER but similar things could be done in Matlab as well. My model had both detailed engine- and vehicle physics so I can do simulations of the engine going through transient load- and speed changes as well as the accelerating vehicle accounting for driveline friction, rolling resistance, inertia, drag, road gradients (if desired), etc.

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What i'd probably do is have a subroutine that activates after a certain interval (after a new boost sample has taken place) and does a subtraction of the last measured boost sample from the current one, and that's your slope over the period (I know technically it's linear and boost could theoretically dip in that period, however with a high sample rate that becomes less important). You can then use that slope as a factor in how much you want the actuator to react against the pi terms etc can't ya. Typical D.
Exactly what I did! Except I'm using engine load/speed as the input signal for the PI and boost pressure for the D placed on the feedforward.
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Old June 11th, 2012, 09:57   #48
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fair does, i don't use matlab but i did once have a bit of a sniff at it, thought it might come in handy though i'm anything but a scientist lol

so whats with these electronic pwm actuators, can't they be driven with the same signal as goes to the n75 valve, or do they need a different frequency/voltage? surely we're talking some simple conversion here.

I'd be tempted to forego the controller and build an adapter board that can listen to the n75 signal perhaps nd replicate it in a format the electronic actuator can use.
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Old June 11th, 2012, 10:06   #49
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so whats with these electronic pwm actuators, can't they be driven with the same signal as goes to the n75 valve, or do they need a different frequency/voltage? surely we're talking some simple conversion here.
Yes, the above was a bit of a tangent considering you were talking about your trials and tribulations of building your own controller. Apparently from posts above, depending on the actuator used you can directly employ the same PWM signal used to drive the N75, so long as you have a PWM and not CAN actuator. Some actuators even use the same 140 Hz base frequency, so it should be amazingly simple Some have feedback of vane position but the early ECUs have no use for this information.

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I'd be tempted to forego the controller and build an adapter board that can listen to the n75 signal perhaps nd replicate it in a format the electronic actuator can use.
Do it and I'll be a customer!
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Old June 11th, 2012, 12:22   #50
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yes, the above was a bit of a tangent considering you were talking about your trials and tribulations of building your own controller.
Don;t get me wrong, i love discussing it - there's not many people to talk to about it on the rover forums, so it's all been solo so far (which, as a non-electrical engineer or engineer in any capacity has led me to crash frequently lol)

It's nice to see it getting there though

Quote:
Do it and I'll be a customer!
if there's enough people wanting to fit these vnt's to justify the costs of producing a design then i'd give some serious consideration - i've re-read the thread, it seems theres several pwm actuators so i'd have to plan on how to make it all interoperable (i think thats the word). Probably can't do much about the canbus right now, though some of the microcontrollers ive used in the past do have CAN facility, i'd have to do my research in that area to be able to use it though.
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Old June 11th, 2012, 12:24   #51
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As usual Kris, i can donate an E-actuator to help things along, i have quite a few including early types.
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Old June 11th, 2012, 16:24   #52
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i'll shoot you an email Ryan, i've got to write you a response anywho :P

I am not 'waist deep' in the vag scene, so would something like this be realistically useful?
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Old June 11th, 2012, 16:42   #53
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Originally Posted by ryanp View Post
As usual Kris, i can donate an E-actuator to help things along, i have quite a few including early types.
So ryan, what type e-actuator are on the GTB turbos that you source for your kits, the type 1 (I am assuming the early type) or the type 3 CAN bus?

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I do agree for a control perspective that the E-actuator makes a vacuum actuator look old tech but rarely would it be possible to install the turbo in the correct orientation so alterations to the bracket at least would still be required.
Why would it be not possible to install the turbo in correct orientation to use the e-actuator? Is it interference with the exhaust header or some other part of the car or some other reason?

Edit: I see above that it is clocking of the turbine/CHRA but since you are making the header cannot the GTB factory clocking be preserved?
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Old June 11th, 2012, 19:58   #54
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Someone should start a requirements/specifications list of what we want this thing to do.

1) Use existing EDC15 PWM as input
1a) Details needed about what this is

2) Drive which actuator?
2a) PWM Input
2b) CAN Input
2c) Stepper Motor

3) Power source?

4) Load requirements?

5) Actuator feedback?
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Old June 11th, 2012, 20:07   #55
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That'd be a good idea.
My initial idea would be to use a small low spec microcontroller to analyse the input signal and reconstruct a usable signal at high frequencies (talking about being able to recalculate signals within 1-2 cycles, including the sample time)
I have done something very similar once when trying to find a tacho signal for my rover, it didn't have a W terminal on the alternator, so i used the dash signal, that turned out to be a square signal with the tacho readout represented by it's frequency so I converted that to a more conventional signal where the frequency was fixed and the duty was modulated to represent the value.
I think I need to read up on how these actuators actually work. Direct PWM is easy enough but i think one or two types are a bit more complicated.
A full spec would be nice tho. something does however bother me -
if its such a straight forward problem why has it not been done?

either it's not a very big problem, or it's a BIG problem

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Old June 11th, 2012, 20:14   #56
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At the moment it seems like a moving target - if we're serious about building something, we should first figure out what it is that we want to do.

Pick an ECU
Pick an Actuator
Analyze both
Design interpreter between the two

I personally like CAN based controls because there is so much you can do with them - but you have to know what you're doing (which I really don't).
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Old June 11th, 2012, 20:18   #57
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That's why i'd do that last. I've always wanted to get into the CANBUS scheme because I've always thought it would be nice if I could modulate the fuel quantites on vp44/vp30 systems 'tuning box style' (but perhaps in a more controlled and adjustable manner).

CAN would be a vastly different circuit than another controller, and if it was all included in one design you'd probably have something that cost a fair bit, so I'm in agreement of sorts that you want to pick one route through the problem, solve it, and if needed crack on with the next.

The CAN system i think would be the hardest, because there will need to be some protocol analysing and disassembly required too no doubt. Have to work out what 'ID' the actuator is listening to, whether it responds to the ecu to confirm 'orders' and all that.

I can give an indication of what my design can do, but i'm not very well informed on actuator types and signals, so i'd have to do some research to decide anything atm

Last edited by Dakta; June 11th, 2012 at 20:21.
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Old June 11th, 2012, 21:31   #58
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I have done some CAN Bus work, PID controller (mainly just PD), lots of motor controller and control systems work as well i hacked a BMW 402/403 & 413/504 ECU... so this is right up my allie

got a BSE in Electrical & Robotics

one of my CAN videos rev1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QuRBQzGs-c

My current CAN Library covers all 11-bit PIDs, working on adding all 29-bit PIDs

rev2 is much snappier, cleaner video + GPS and other goodies... soon to be HD & for sale :-D

let me know how i can help

i just haz no diesel to hook it up to for testing :-(
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Old June 11th, 2012, 21:59   #59
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keaton - thats pretty cool.

If we know what frequency the bus runs at and what node addresses the turbo actuator and ECU are, the rest is easy(ish). Record all can messages on the bus and pick out the messages to/from the actuator over a wide range of commands to get a feel for the data range and resolution of the messages and if there are any enable messages or checkup bits that need to be set.. The controller (yet to be designed) then just needs to take a physical input (from N75 command) and spit out CAN messages (which is the easy part).
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Old June 12th, 2012, 02:36   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snakesausage View Post
So ryan, what type e-actuator are on the GTB turbos that you source for your kits, the type 1 (I am assuming the early type) or the type 3 CAN bus?



Why would it be not possible to install the turbo in correct orientation to use the e-actuator? Is it interference with the exhaust header or some other part of the car or some other reason?

Edit: I see above that it is clocking of the turbine/CHRA but since you are making the header cannot the GTB factory clocking be preserved?
The only situation where the factory clocking would nearly work is with a top mounted turbo and all custom pipework and oil lines, might need a funky layout to work well in a packed bay too.

VAG GTB's have the CAN-BUS actuator AFAIK
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