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TDI Power Enhancements Discussions about increasing the power of your TDI engine. i.e. chips, injectors, powerboxes, clutches, etc. Handling, suspensions, wheels, type discussion should be put into the "Upgrades (non TDI Engine related)" forum. Non TDI vehicle related postings will be moved or removed. Please note the Performance Disclaimer.

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Old June 9th, 2012, 03:13   #31
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I do agree for a control perspective that the E-actuator makes a vacuum actuator look old tech but rarely would it be possible to install the turbo in the correct orientation so alterations to the bracket at least would still be required.

The actuators fail for fun in some OE situations, Ford being the most common i know of!!
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Old June 9th, 2012, 05:06   #32
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That's correct, the biggest advantage in using the modified vacuum actuator is the free clocking orientation of CHRA to suit an non OEM application....

In my case situation is a little different as I can keep stock orientation of turbo and actuator....

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Old June 9th, 2012, 05:47   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TDIMeister View Post
Vacuum is fine if you're dealing with only one turbo and an old-tech one at that........
This is very true.. adding a second turbo definitely complicates things..
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Old June 9th, 2012, 06:49   #34
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Ryan, what prevents an e-actuated turbo from being oriented properly compared to a vacuum-actuated one? Or did I misunderstand?
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Old June 9th, 2012, 08:29   #35
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Electronic Actuator has it's fixed mounting position, mostly on compressor housing.
Sure it can be changed by making a custom mounting bracket for a different location, but then you also have to fiddle around with correct basic setting which is not as easy like with a vacuum actuator and stop screw :-(
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Old June 9th, 2012, 08:36   #36
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Now I get it. Clocking relative to the turbine/CHRA and compressor is the problem.
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Old June 9th, 2012, 08:54   #37
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http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread...ctuator&page=2

picture of electronic controler of actuator and many info.

I have Type 1 and 2 in my hand.
Type 2 have PWM input and CAN output for information.

Is good base for Arduino project!

This is VNT boost controler for TD and m-tdi, also tdi with chip modifie without boost control.
http://dmn.kuulalaakeri.org/vnt-lda/



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Old June 9th, 2012, 09:16   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dieseleux View Post
Yes I do remember that thread. But two years later one still cannot just go and buy one - or maybe I've been out of the loop.
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Old June 9th, 2012, 12:03   #39
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dunno how relevent it is as my vnt is vacuum but I tune rover diesels and there is no vnt solution so i've been having to build my own.

Unfortunately I'm not a fan of arduino, nor did I even know it existed at the time, so I had to go the long route of learning electronics, coding and so forth. Even had to design my own pcb's result is it looks a bit rough -







haven't finished the software but this was an artists impression:



Eventually after a hefty amount of time i've started to see results:



Green line is requested (i intend this to be mappable to either quantity adjuster feedback line or tps so you can base target boost on load) though on that test it was set static. Blue line is actual boost, red line is an unused channel (I sometimes use it to report duty cycle back to laptop so i can check its working).

It uses a very simple mainly proportional control loop though im still working on the control engine. The units are in byte value (i.e what the controller computer sees) rather than real world values i'm afraid so it might not make much sense to you.


here's another log with duty logging enabled:




Not sure if this is of any interest to anyone, but this vnt control has been my 'baby' for about a year now, it's been slow going and i've had more failure than success, but it's getting there. All configs are held in eeprom so technically once my protocols finished it's 'mappable'.

My main aim now is to try and dampen the duty cycle response.

I have wondered how difficult it would be to make it work with an electronic actuator - pwm wouldn't be too bad i dont think, CAN would be harder but some microprocessors i use do have can support so you couldn't rule it out i guess, though it'd need new schematic.

Last edited by Dakta; June 9th, 2012 at 12:10.
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Old June 9th, 2012, 12:47   #40
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Very, very nice work!
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Old June 9th, 2012, 13:08   #41
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cheers, these days there's quite a few vnt control projects about, but back when I started, there was none so you pretty much 'on your own' lol.

Bit of a scary experience - that 'lda' project linked above is more advanced I think, but i'm not a control engineer at the end of the day, and there was nothing else available for control so I couldn't just sit there, Ihad to do something about it.

PID really blew my head when I first started researching it, I know it's quite simple in theory but turning it all into practice *puts gun to head*

I can't do math
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Old June 10th, 2012, 22:31   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dakta View Post

Green line is requested (i intend this to be mappable to either quantity adjuster feedback line or tps so you can base target boost on load) though on that test it was set static. Blue line is actual boost, red line is an unused channel (I sometimes use it to report duty cycle back to laptop so i can check its working).

It uses a very simple mainly proportional control loop though im still working on the control engine. The units are in byte value (i.e what the controller computer sees) rather than real world values i'm afraid so it might not make much sense to you.


here's another log with duty logging enabled:




Not sure if this is of any interest to anyone, but this vnt control has been my 'baby' for about a year now, it's been slow going and i've had more failure than success, but it's getting there. All configs are held in eeprom so technically once my protocols finished it's 'mappable'.

My main aim now is to try and dampen the duty cycle response.
Veeerry interesting! Reminds me of work I did in my Master thesis developing a boost controller scheme for 2-stage turbos...



Edit: The answer to your response damping is to have an integrating component of your control system in addition to just a proportional scheme - a "PI" and not just "P" controller.
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Old June 11th, 2012, 03:01   #43
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Some D need at spool time, make spool a little bit slower but add stability at target boost point, after reach this point, D is turn off or reduce.
You need state switch in programming code to change and adapt your algorithm to regulation system. (state switch like: Far lower, Near lower, on regulation, Near upper, Far Upper)



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Old June 11th, 2012, 04:41   #44
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Thanks....that's interesting.

D is quite easy to implement, integral I have a bit of difficulty with because quite often (when driver is off the throttle etc) the right level of boost can't be attained exactly leading to windup, which could cause instability whilst it winds back down i've been thinking of ideas to avoid this, perhaps having a regulation mode like you say where boost is near setpoint so things like the 'I term' come into effect etc.
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Old June 11th, 2012, 08:58   #45
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One of the things I did was to implement a form of a D-type predictive feedforward that's only active when the actual boost pressure comes within a certain range below- or above the requested value. The idea is that when the actual boost is approaching the requested value, the controller measures the trajectory or slope of the transient boost. If the slope is high approaching the requested value from below, it's a good probability that an overshoot is going to occur. The same is true that if the slope is a large negative value coming from above the requested, an undershoot will likely occur. Below are pictures of the overall schematic of the controller (this is for a WG setup, but a VNT would not be much different). the PI controller in this model has built-in anti-windup. @Dieseleux: As you can see, state-switching was implemented.



Schematic of the feedforward alone:


Signal response:


As you can see, the feedforward reacts faster to open the WG between about t=1.7-1.8 seconds and begin to close it faster after the peak than with simple a PI controller alone. Beyond t=2.6 seconds the feedforward doesn't play a role. Simulations showed large improvements in stability and convergence time of the boost control with properly chosen gains. Edit: obviously you can't have a negative WG open area; the actuator signal was tapped before a limiter, so any negative signal just means zero. For context, t=0 represents a WOT load-step from second gear starting from 20 km/h.

To be clear, a proper controller, especially in the context of a two-stage turbo system, is not as simple as just having a PID controller. Here's a schematic of how BMW controls its 2-stage turbos:
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