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TDI Conversions Discussions on converting non TDIs into TDIS. More general items can be answered better in other sections. This is ideal for issues that don't have an overlap and are very special to swaping engines.

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Old May 28th, 2012, 19:12   #1
Demon Diesel
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Default 2007 Audi A4Q Avant 2.0TFSI -> 2.0TDI

Ok guys it's finally started after about 2 years of reseach (going back to before I even owned the car).

2007 Audi A4 (B7) Quattro 2.0T FSI Avant Dolphin Grey 6 speed manual

The dooner engine is a 2005 VW Passat (B5.5) 2.0TDI (BHW)

After some long research I've notices that the BHW is basically the same engine as the (BPW) that was avaliable in Europe in the B7s.
Both are longitudinaly mounted 2.0L TDI (PD) 8 valve engines.

I didn't want to import a complete engine because I like the idea of using as many parts from North America as possible. We'll see how this works out...

Some pictures of the engine removal progress...



Picture of the 2.0TDI with the FSI front engine mount and FSI accessories bracket (not a good fit)




I'll try and update when I get a chance. If anyone's done a TDI conversion on a B7 let me know.

Last edited by Demon Diesel; May 30th, 2012 at 18:29. Reason: Picture added
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Old May 28th, 2012, 19:31   #2
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Cool project, following!
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Old May 30th, 2012, 18:42   #3
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So i messed around with my FSI and TDI parts...

This is the FSI accessories bracket installed on my TDI. One of the 6 mounting bolts does not line up with the block (I knew this was going to be the case but figured 5/6 is good enough). Reason for even attempting this is because the FSI has a new style higher current alternator, PS pump fits for sure and most important the belt, tensioner and rollers are all avaliable in North America. The proper accessories bracket used in Europe means I need to pick all these parts up from Europe with the exception of the alternator, AC compressor and possibly the PS pump.



As you can see the FSI bracket posses a bigger problem. The complete setup is inset by about 3/8". I'm wondering now if it's even a possibility to "slot" the 5 mounting holes on the brakcet so that the pulleys will all line up. Maybe a little welding and some milling work. At the end of the day it may not be worth it but i do like the idea of using the FSI setup on the TDI.

Picture of offset pulleys.

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Old May 30th, 2012, 19:09   #4
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Very interesting...

Questions abound... How are you going to integrate the old ECU and the new harness to get the instrument cluster working (tach, other gauges etc)?

Are you keeping the existing 6 speed?

What (other than running on Gasoline) is wrong with the 2.0TFSI?
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Old May 30th, 2012, 19:52   #5
Demon Diesel
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I've studied the Audi FSI, TDI and VW B5.5 (BHW) wiring diagrams for many MANY hours... The two TDIs are very close... To the point that I was simply going to modify the Passat harness to work in my Audi. After some seaching I was able to find an Audi B7 TDI 2.0L 8V harness that was out of a Quattro/6 speed manual. The price was right and I figured it was not worth my time to modify the Passat one. If I had to I would (not that much different).



As for the ECU. I seached and seached and lost out on a VERY good deal (Auction + Time Zone different = NO ECU). After a little research it looks like the Passat ECU and Audi ECU may be the exact same HARDWARE. Some back and forth with Mark at Malone Tuning and next thing you know I recieve my ECU back from him. Funny thing though... The ECU part number is clearly labled as a Passat ECU. BUT when you log in using VCDS it looks like I have me an AUDI A4 Quattro 2.0 TDI ECU. My hat comes off to Mark and his great work. I have yet to get it all installed and working but I don't dought that he'll get any issues worked out (DPF delete, remove sensors, TUNE).



The cluster I also purchased from Europe from a A4 TDI. With the help of ETKA I was able to figure out the exact part number (others may work) that would have came in my car had it been a 2.0TDI. At the same time I figure why not upgrade to a color display Don't ask how but apparently this cluster (RB8) has been reset to "virgin".



As for the transmission I figured I would keep the stock 6 speed manual and it would be "ok". My 6th gear overall ratio is basically the same as my 5th gear in my Jetta TDI. I've done alot of research on various transmissions that were avaliable and if things pan out I may change it for an Audi A4 2.0TDI PD170 (16v) transmission. It uses the same final drive as the FSI. The 5th on that is close the ALH 5th so the sixth would really be nice. We'll see how it goes. I will definately post if I get the transmission in hand.

My issues with a 2.0TFSI... Well I'm actually very impressed with this motor. Highway fuel economy is very good considering it's a 3800lbs Quattro and 200HP Gasser. Put it in the city and it starts to drink as expected. The other big one for me is when you're on the hwy cruising along in 6th and you deciede you want to pick up the pace. Well, putting it to the floor basically changes the sound of the exhaust. I really miss the low end torque of the TDIs. Yes the FSI makes some good power over a wide band but unless you drive around in 3rd or 4th on the hwy it's not usable.
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Old June 1st, 2012, 09:51   #6
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Cool!

Why not use the BHW accessory bracket? I don't recall where everything is, but it definitely looks like the AC is on the wrong side of the engine.

You may have to modify the bracket, machine off the difference and add spacers to each accessory. The PD timing gear is wider than gasser and VE timing gear.
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Old June 1st, 2012, 10:35   #7
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Problem with the BHW bracket is that the AC is on the wrong side of the engine like you said. Additional to that even if I used the BHW AC compressor and modify the lines (not my preference), the AC compressor wouldn't work with the car. I could be wrong but the B7s (and possibly the B6s) use a variable AC compressor as apposed to a clutch style like most cars. Electrically the BHW compressor would not work either.

I did think of machining and adding spacers to all the parts but I'm thinking (hoping) it may be easier to machine and slide over the complete bracket.

This may prove to be to much work and I'll just suck up the defeat and order a bracket, tensioner, idler, and belt from Europe.

BHW Belts (VW B5.5 2.0TDI)


BPW Belts (Audi B7 2.0TDI)

Last edited by Demon Diesel; June 1st, 2012 at 10:42. Reason: Added Pictures
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Old June 3rd, 2012, 18:10   #8
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Ok so I had a chance to do a little more work on this. Managed to get the FSI out. I really like how they interconnected the engine harness to the car. Everything is connected with 3 connectors and one power wire all in the ECU box by the wiper assembly. No need to even go in the car under the dash or anything!

Picture of engine bay minus engine.


Picture of engine removed complete with harness and ECU.


Some interesting things I noticed... The Dual Mass Flywheel has some play in it. Not sure what is considered normal. Anyone ever played with this and able to give me an idea of what's normal movement by hand?

I may have to suck up the cost and go to a performance Single Mass Flywheel/Clutch. I was hopeing to get away with the stock FSI or FSI DMF and S4 pressure plate and disk.

Next Step: Planning on dry fitting the TDI in just to make sure that the B5.5 engine brackets fit and possible play with some downpipe options. The B5.5 downpipe looks like it could fit. I'd like to stick with that until I'm ready for a turbo upgrade (GTB1756 or GTB2056).
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Old June 3rd, 2012, 18:47   #9
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Since you have the engine already out, you hope that the turbo upgrade will be a do-once-and forget-about-it-after job. So that said, get the largest turbo to buy you more performance head room (you WILL get the itch ). And since you're at it, why not a GTB2260?

Check this out: http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=332754
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Old June 3rd, 2012, 19:00   #10
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Good work! Your making good progress now lets get that diesel engine in!
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Old June 3rd, 2012, 20:14   #11
Demon Diesel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TDIMeister View Post
Since you have the engine already out, you hope that the turbo upgrade will be a do-once-and forget-about-it-after job. So that said, get the largest turbo to buy you more performance head room (you WILL get the itch ). And since you're at it, why not a GTB2260?

Check this out: http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=332754
I don't dought that I will want more power (bigger turbo) but I think right now my goal is to get this thing up and running as a TDI! I'm hoping the stock VNT1749 will take me to the 180HP area. Already have a small intercooler upgrade as the BHW and BPW (Euro B7 2.0TDI 8v) have only one SMI whereas the FSI came with dual SMI. The other one is budget... Need to space some of these expense out. My big ones now are the BSM for the BHW and now I'm thinking to get a real clutch and ditch the SMF. If all pans out I'll be getting a Euro 6mt Quattro form a B7 TDI. All big ticket items.

I totally get the go big now theory... BUT! I'm a little nervous that I will give up some good low end punch. Part of the reason why I want the TDI is I like the bottom end torque. I've seen ALHs with 17/22 hybrids and they don't feel as nice on the bottom as the VNT17. I am thinking that maybe the GTB1756 isn't enough to get a reliable 220HP/300+ftlbs. The GTB2056 is very hard to come by but that might be better. I def think the 2260 is way to big for my liking. Sure I would love 250+HP but not at the expense of waiting to 2500RPM to get any of it.

Seen the link before. Wish I could have a B7 16v TDI as a starting point! Hope I can get some nice dyno numbers the this one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lanciaf1 View Post
Good work! Your making good progress now lets get that diesel engine in!
Thanks cus... I'll need your hands to help me lift in the TDI.
FSI out =
TDI in =

It will definately be nice to hear that TDI running in the B7 chassis!!!
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Old June 3rd, 2012, 20:33   #12
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The GTB2260 spools pretty well, doesn't have a 2500+ RPM boost threshold and will still be pretty torquey at the low end with the right combination of injector nozzles and tune; don't be afraid whatsoever, especially if your frame of reference is the 2.0 T-FSI.

I think -- nay, I KNOW -- that any intercooler upgrade is an absolute waste of $$$ from the dual-SMI you have now.

If the NVH of your 2002 Jetta doesn't bother you, an option on your BHW is to completely do away with the BSM altogether. When you look at the size and weight of it, the reduction of parasitic losses, rotating inertia and weight would be significant for a relatively trivial reduction in secondary imbalance. Edit: Later on, if you want to do more serious engine power mods, reducing reciprocating mass via lighter rods (Rosten) and piston pins (Scitex) will benefit this secondary imbalance from the source that you would never notice or miss the missing BSM.

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Old June 3rd, 2012, 20:55   #13
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I hope I don't end up eating these words...

I would like to get as much power out of the BHW without doing any internals work. I don't mind injectors and maybe a cam if mine goes (hope not-fingers crossed).

That being said does the 2260 buy me anything over the 2056 or 1756 (All GTBs of course)? My guess is that the BHW can't make more than 220HP (reliable) before needing internal upgrades. I know the 2260 will kick in before 2500 but it seems to have at least a few hundred RPM lag over the 2056. This is definately a daily driver and I don't find myself running up in the high revs most of the time. I would rather the joy of being in 6th on the hwy cruising at ~2K and being able to accellerate without haveing to go down 3 gears like I had to in the FSI. The FSI kick in at around 2500 and it kept going for a very long time after that. Something that the TDI won't do but I'm ok with that. You know of any good dyno plots for the 2260?

As for the BSM. I've got one on order and it's been delayed. If it takes much longer I may have no choice but to do a BSM delete. Had this been a suzuki sidekick conversion it would have been a no brainer. Being a 5 year old A4, i'm a little worried about the vibration. You been in any that have been deleted?

Any idea about the DMF clutches? Are they suppose to move side to side by hand? If so how much? Just wondering if mine is due to be replaced in which case i'm going with a SMF.
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Old June 3rd, 2012, 20:58   #14
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The GT1749VA is probably only good for 160hp, there and beyond it will suffer with boost creep issues. Look for a GTB2056VL. Rumor has it they spool just as good as a 17/22. Hopefully this summer I'll be running one on my Passat.

The BHW has larger crank journals and decent rods. RyanP is running 300BHP on similar rods and crank and many others have run up over 250BHP on stock ASZ and ARL bottom ends, which are very similar to the BHW.

Stay away from the DMF for a modded TDI. I have a southbend 01A SMF and Stage 2 Endurance on my Passat. I also have a AEB DMF and Stage 3 Endurance sitting on the shelf for my A4 if I decide to use it.. I might let it go for rather cheap if you want to give it a whirl. My stock clutch seems to be holding up so far.
Scott Dewitt has Southbend flywheels for 01E on a TDI, I bet RyanP can also set you up with something.
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Last edited by JFettig; June 3rd, 2012 at 21:02.
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Old June 3rd, 2012, 21:16   #15
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My philosophy is "up-buy" on upgrades for performance headroom (e.g. nozzles, turbo, etc.) and durability (e.g. engine internal), then "down-tune" if necessary or desired, rather than cheapen on the "hard" upgrades to their absolute bleeding edges and pray for "soft" gains from ECU tuning.
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