8V TDI common rail - interested?

TDIMeister

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I'm itching for this, so let's get the discussion going.


  • ALH/AHF/ASV head, ported, big valves, camshaft
  • block from above (or better, from a PD)
  • 81/81.5mm pistons
  • upgraded rods
  • CP3 pump, lots available from the Duramax/Cummins world; many companies modify them to increase flow and bullet-proof them. I've calculated that such a pump could be driven at 1/2 crank speed (using the same VE37 pump sprocket preferably the heavier one from the automatic pump) and still give enough fuel for any conceivable power output
  • Crafter CR injector bodies
  • Nozzles??
  • Fuel rail - CBEA, or other? HP fuel lines?
  • ECU??
  • Turbos. Why, 2-stage, of course. ;)
 

bhtooefr

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The pre-2012 Crafter uses a 2.5 5-cyl 10v CR - basically a CR version of the old 2.5 VE engine that the 90s Audi TDIs and T4 Transporters used.
 

bhtooefr

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Looks like injector hold down hardware is taller, so this much is needed (four of each):

N 105 811 02 - M8x58 bolt
076 130 216 - bracket
N 023 731 4 - retaining washer ("8.4" listed)
WHT 000 411 - pin ("13.95" listed)

Stock Crafter injectors are part 076 130 277. They'll definitely need better nozzles, though.
 

bhtooefr

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I'm actually wondering if you could use a stock Crafter rail, and cap off the fifth port. You know the line routing would be mostly right, then...

Oh, and I think the Crafter is running a CP3 already, and according to the SSP (that link is part 2), it's using piezo injectors.
 

vwmikel

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I think at least some of those Crafters were EDC16 so the immobilizer could be removed for a swap. There is typically also a cylinder count byte so you could change it from 5 to 4 cylinder. I've never tried it, but you'd think it should work.

Also, how do the rails differ from say the FSI rails? Those are direct injection. But, for that matter you might be able to just use the VW CR rail from an 09+ car.
 

bhtooefr

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Yeah, the SSP mentions that they were EDC16.

The annoying part will be that they'll be set up to interface with a bunch of Mercedes systems, so I don't know how compatibility with VW stuff will be.
 

NoJoke

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For strictly conversion purposes unless there is a plug an play solution this will cost more in development than a new BKD motor. Hate to rain:p

The best way to tackle conversions is to start with a good base...for example starting with an AWD car rather than converting or starting with a capable fueling system rather than...etc.

I'm a die hard VAG fan and will probably end up in a Porsche but in terms of diesel motors its BMW, Cummins, and Mercedes. Yup a strait six!

You want something wild yet somewhat financially attainable, start with a 05-06 CDI motor pop it in something light, double it's fuel pump or CP3 convert, import 420cdi injectors, then choose your air of choice:D
 

DPM

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Pump-wise I believe the CP1 as used in first-gen PSA 2.0 HDIs is drop-in compatible with the VE- pump. If you weren't looking for massive power (so not this build then) it'd certainly be an easier option.
/unless of course there's a similar fitment of CP3...
 

ryanp

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Sounds like an interesting project, i know you have been dreaming for a while now!! What are your thought over this compared to just using an existing 16v CR engine??


Pump is the same on the 2003-2008 2.7 and 3.0 TDi's such as BKN, ASB, BPP and BSG engines in the Audi A4's. I think retaining this pump would suffice or swap for the larger plug and play 2000bar pump.



The ECU is indeed EDC16, I dont think Mercedes use the VAG engine so we might be lucky




ALL the crafter engines are exactly the same other than the ECU and turbo differences, block, head, injection etc all have the same part numbers.



Just capping a port on the rail could work or just use a 2.0 CR rail?:

Crafter


2.0
 
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bhtooefr

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The ECU is indeed EDC16, I dont think Mercedes use the VAG engine so we might be lucky
Right, but the Crafter is a Sprinter, and just about everything that isn't the engine - including things like instrumentation - is Mercedes.
 

m1ketdi

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Right, but the Crafter is a Sprinter, and just about everything that isn't the engine - including things like instrumentation - is Mercedes.
EDC16 can be immo offed to not need those systems though....

EDC17 would be alot more effort to sort out.
 

TDIMeister

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Pump-wise I believe the CP1 as used in first-gen PSA 2.0 HDIs is drop-in compatible with the VE- pump. If you weren't looking for massive power (so not this build then) it'd certainly be an easier option.
/unless of course there's a similar fitment of CP3...
Pump is the same on the 2003-2008 2.7 and 3.0 TDi's such as BKN, ASB, BPP and BSG engines in the Audi A4's. I think retaining this pump would suffice or swap for the larger plug and play 2000bar pump.

The reason I'm thinking of using a Duramax/Cummins CP3 HPFP is that they're relatively plentiful here in North America and there exists an aftermarket to supply and modify them. Just as importantly, I want to drive the pump at 1/2 crank speed to use the same sprocket and timing belt as the original VE engine (running 1/1 will mean a smaller sprocket and will leave too much slack for the belt - I don't want to have to fabricate another idler somewhere). Some machining of the existing pump mounting flange should be all that's needed to accommodate the CP3, as has been done to adapt the newer ALH pump into the 1Z/AHU.

With a 3-piston pump with the capacity to supply a 6+ L engine, I have calculated that this setup will supply enough fuel when run at half its original speed (in an engine that will operate at roughly 2X RPM) and fuel pressure pulsations in the rail will not be too bad.
 

ryanp

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I see, makes sense, especially if the (de-immobilised) EDC16 ECU can run the duramax pump!
 

vwmikel

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I believe some of the Duramax ECU's are also EDC16 so there is probably a decent chance of things being compatible there.
 

Drivbiwire

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With a 3-piston pump with the capacity to supply a 6+ L engine, I have calculated that this setup will supply enough fuel when run at half its original speed (in an engine that will operate at roughly 2X RPM) and fuel pressure pulsations in the rail will not be too bad.
The fuel displacement must coincide with injector actuation hence timing of injection and pump discharge must occur at the same time.

A three plunger pump would be difficult to time and the fluctuations in pressure would wreak havoc on the injector sequencing.

Keep in mind the pumps vary pump displacement to match the injector output. This primarily controls the rail pressure at the specified level for the existing load and rpm range. As load and rpm increase the displacement is increased raising the system pressure and fine tuned with the pressure regulator at the end of the rail.

Simply pumping fuel into the rail will not allow a consistent regulated pressure or available fuel volume or for that matter the ability the properly regulate the rail pressure across the load range of the motor.

A three plunger pump could work but would require an odd ratio to coincide with pump discharge. The single pump displacement valve (volume/pressure control valve) would be able to retain a simple pressure control loop with the ECU without requiring an odd control algorithm.

Just my $.02
 

Drivbiwire

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Not kidding, this prevents fluctuations in rail pressure. The rail dampens out the displacement pulse but the pump for the most part is displacing an equal amount of fuel that is being injected.

The over supply to the rail is regulated off by the pressure regulator valve thus preventing over shoot on rail pressure.

Again, the pump functions very similar to the VE system except you have a rail to dampen out the pressure pulse and provide a stable regulated but variable pressure.

The injector control remains the primary means of pressure regulation by virtue of injected quantity with the pump control valve acting as the secondary and the rail pressure regulator the third or "fine" pressure control.

This function is required to prevent poor starting characteristics. Pump displacement provides immediate startup pressure without having to fully pressurize the rail. Put more simply, having all injection events timed to coincide with the compression stroke insure that starting is not compromised by having to first pressurize the rail to minimum opening pressure. The pump provides an initial overshoot in displacement and insures nearly instant pressure on the first compression stroke to deliver the minimum fuel rail pressure, then the pump reduces displacement to that required for idle control volumes at reduced pressure.
 
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bhtooefr

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Pete,

The calculations on this were JUST performed in another thread...

Okay, then revised calculations are:

22.994 cc's of rail volume. At full load, each full-stroke injection event (adding all the little events together) is around 60mg or 71.4 microliters. If the rail's ID expands by 5 microns, it can hold 1.11 additional cc's of fuel or 15 full-load injection quantities. And taking into account Niner's reminder, bump that to 16.5 injection quantities. Seems plausible that the rail could be the accumulator. The rail's metal would have to have very good fatigue resistance and any weird harmonics dampened or canceled. If internal rail volume is at 28,000 psi (for a given load/rpm point), a full-load injection event only takes pressure down to about 26,100psi. 2 full-load events back to back with the pump supplying no new fuel pressure would drop rail pressure to 24,000psi. 4 would drop it down to ~20,000psi...and so forth.
 

TDIsyncro

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I am pretty sure that the timing is only critcal on single plunger pumps..ie our 4cyl tdi's. I dont think the pumps are timed on dmax and cummins...3 plunger pumps.
 

Drivbiwire

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Even the 3 plunger systems are timed to coincide with injector sequencing...

Sorry but that is how the system is designed to work, pump displacement MUST coincide with injector opening to provide a uniform and well controlled injection quantity.
 

TDIMeister

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So how does one make a 3-plunger (120°) pump sync with injection events in an 8-cylinder engine, i.e. in 90-degree intervals? Be that as it may, I'm not too worried. A pump that works on an 8-cylinder engine driven 1:1 to the crank will work fine on a 4-cylinder engine at 1:2.
 

DPM

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Drivbiwire

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Pete, you're talking rubbish. 3-piston pumps run UNTIMED in many applications as above, never mind that they run as 2-cylinder pumps much of the time.

Please read the attached link provided many years back by our own Christi carefully before withdrawing your false information. Specifically:

"The high pressure pump is not a distributing pump and does not need setting. "

http://www.christiantena.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/motor/peugeot/hdi/hdioperation/highpressurepump.html
Not timing the pump to the injection sequencing will load the pump out of phase with the crank generating timing belt stress that can overload the system (Belt, pulley's etc).

Secondly the pump needs to remain in phase during peak injection pressure otherwise transient pressure pulses can tear up the internal pump plunger in addition to the quantity control errors the pressure fluctuations will produce.

The TDI (we are talking TDI's right?) have very high crank acceleration forces and keeping the pumps pressure sequencing in time with the injection events is mandatory.

I have my references and they are directly from Bosch and VW (as well as MB).

TDIMeister: I'd suggest a dual single plunger pump arrangement CP4.X The overall stress would be reduced but you would have very high displacement capability under maximum load with reduced loading and better fuel rail pressure stability that will translate into greater quantity control under all loading (fuel rate delivery) conditions.
 
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DPM

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Utter rubbish. Source please?

edit for more info, from Bosch Yellow Book on CR, 1999. pp18

"the fuel does not have to be specially compressed for each individual injection process"

on 3rd piston switchoff
"the HP pump no longer delivers the fuel continuously but rather with brief interruptions"

on driving the pump
"only low peak torques are generated...stress remains uniform...1/9 of a VE pump"
 
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bhtooefr

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Not timing the pump to the injection sequencing will load the pump out of phase with the crank generating timing belt stress that can overload the system (Belt, pulley's etc).

Secondly the pump needs to remain in phase during peak injection pressure otherwise transient pressure pulses can tear up the internal pump plunger in addition to the quantity control errors the pressure fluctuations will produce.
Monitor the pressure constantly, and once you hit your target, start relieving pressure. That solves the timing belt and pump plunger stress issues. Then, have a map of rail pressure versus duration, to get a desired fuel quantity.
 

TDIMeister

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Pete, I am not saying that there will be NO torque and pressure fluctuations. But you have a long history of hyperbole on things that fall rather short of being cataclysmic.


Source: Richard van Basshuysen and Fred Schäfer (ed.). Internal Combustion Engine Handbook - Basics, Components, Systems, and Perspectives. SAE International 2004.

In the above, the drive torque and pressure fluctuations are plotted. In the worst case, the torque fluctuation is about 15Nm peak-to-peak. All intermittent pumps and reciprocating devices are going to exhibit this behavior, and there is a simple solution for this: You put an inertial weight, like a flywheel sprocket. :rolleyes:

With regard to pressure fluctuations, the worst case amounts to about +/- 0.01 kbar or 10 bar. With the mean at 1500 bar, that's 0.67%. Not the magnitude that will make a lick of discernable difference (especially when we're not only talking about one injection event but rather more commonly now up to 7 per cylinder per cycle over a wide span of crank angle). :rolleyes:

And this data is on FIE that's at least 8 years old, based on the date of the book. There have been improvements made in succeeding generations.

Like I said, Pete, you have a long history of spouting out your opinion rather than well-established and accepted fact. So, I kindly challenge and invite you to post written proof from a credible third party (e.g. Bosch Automotive Handbook or similar, not some unknown, non-cited website or "expert individual") that unambiguously confirms your assertions. I've done my part. :rolleyes:
 
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