Flywheel Chatter after clutch install?

vwman2 · May 23, 2012

Hey all,
I just had a new Single Mass flywheel, pressure plate and Vr6 clutch installed yesterday. Everything feels amazing compared to the original setup but when the clutch is not engaged I’m hearing a chatter that I did not hear before. When the clutch is engaged I don’t hear it. I changed the throw out bearing that came with the kit. I purchased the kit from germanautoparts.com.
Is this normal or something wrong?

Growler · May 23, 2012

normal for single mass flywheels on mk4s.

motor on.

vwman2 · May 23, 2012

I was just doing some more research on it and im glad to hear it's normal. Thank you again

VeeDubTDI · May 23, 2012

There is a different flywheel that doesn't rattle, but it is normal for the "standard" single mass to rattle. A bit annoying, but less annoying than the dual mass piece of junk.

vwman2 · May 23, 2012

this is the kit i have

http://www.germanautoparts.com/productdisplay/47102

n1das · May 23, 2012

The rattle sound is actually not coming from the flywheel. It's the sound of the gears in the transmission rattling while they spin unloaded when idling in neutral with the clutch out.

The TDI engine generates strong torque pulses at idle and these are normally damped out by the rubber band effect of the stock DMF at low RPMs. With the VR6 SMF clutch setup, you've traded away damping that was provided by the DMF to smooth out the torque input to the transmission. So now the torque pulses at idle are transmitted to the gear cluster as is spins and rattle the gears. The gears have some backlash and causes them to make the rattle as they repeatedly click together. Instead of a smooth rotation, it's a rapid speedup-slowdown-speedup-slowdown etc. type of rotation. It doesn't hurt anything because the gears are unloaded while spinning in neutral with the clutch out.

You may notice the rattle sound will be louder when everything is hot compared to being cold right after a cold start. The gear oil the tranny will be thinner when everything is hot and allow more rattle to happen. How full your transmission is with gear oil will affect it too. Also what weight SMF you're using will affect the rattle. Lighter SMFs will make the rattle worse. This is why it's recommended to stick with the stock (heavy) weight SMF instead of using a lighter version.

I've read in another thread that the particular clutch disk used may also affect the rattle with an SMF setup. The springs in the clutch disk may affect the amount of damping you get between the engine and transmission. With the VR6 setup you have, the rattle is normal.

Clear as mud, eh?

Good luck.

n1das · May 23, 2012

vwman2 said:
Hey all,
I just had a new Single Mass flywheel, pressure plate and Vr6 clutch installed yesterday. Everything feels amazing compared to the original setup but when the clutch is not engaged I’m hearing a chatter that I did not hear before. When the clutch is engaged I don’t hear it. I changed the throw out bearing that came with the kit. I purchased the kit from germanautoparts.com.
Is this normal or something wrong?

Clutch pedal on floor = clutch "in" = clutch NOT engaged (engine uncoupled from tranny).
Clutch pedal not being stepped on = clutch "out" = clutch fully engaged (engine coupled to tranny).

I know the terminology trips people up sometimes.

The VR6 setup is strong and very reliable clutch setup. It is good for light performance mods to the car. With a highly modified TDI producing some serious torque and hp, it won't be strong enough. Whether you'll need to upgrade it in the future depends on how far you want to travel down the slippery slope of performance modifications. If your staying bone stock with performance, you now have a strong and reliable clutch setup.

The rattle at idle in neutral is one of the tradeoffs made to have a stronger clutch setup.

Good luck and Welcome to TDIclub.

vwman2 · May 23, 2012

wow thanks for the great explanaton. I did notice that it was quiter when i first started it up in the morning. I can deal with the noise as long as im not hurting anything in there. I really felt like there was something wrong when i heard that! but i would then drive it and it will feel great!

The gearbox fluid was changed while it was out so i know thats full.

Abacus · May 23, 2012

David,

I did not have any rattle before I changed out my stock LUK clutch and after the South Bend install, it rattles.

Definitely not the transmission. Some clutches rattle. Mine is one of them.

n1das · May 23, 2012

Abacus said:
David,

I did not have any rattle before I changed out my stock LUK clutch and after the South Bend install, it rattles.

Definitely not the transmission. Some clutches rattle. Mine is one of them.

Fundamentally the rattle still comes from the gears in the transmission as they click together while spinning. Whether or not the clutch setup allows the torque pulses from the engine to pulse the gear cluster hard enough to cause the rattle is another matter. A lot of variables will affect it. Your original LUK setup was quiet because it did a good job of smoothing the torque input to the transmission.

With your LUK setup, is it a DMF or SMF setup?
If SMF, does it still use a G60/VR6 SMF?
Whatever FW is used in the LUK setup, is it heavier or lighter than a G60/VR6 SMF?
Are the springs in the LUK disk different from a VR6 or South Bend disk?

I have a South Bend Stage 3 (recently rename South Bend Stage 2 Endurance?) clutch w/OEM VW G60/VR6 SMF in my 05 ATD PD JWagen. It rattles too like yours and my 02 Golf w/SACHS G60/VR6 SMF clutch setup. The 02 Golf went over 200k miles with performance mods and me beating on it (i.e., using the power, not abusing the clutch). I've lived with the rattle for a long time.

Matt-98AHU · May 23, 2012

VR6s are smoother running engines than 4 cylinders. There is a clutch disk Sachs uses specifically for 4 cylinders. It also turns out that this 228mm 4 cylinder clutch kit uses the same pressure plate as the VR6 kit does, therefore clamping force is nearly identical (there may be a small difference in friction material that affects clamping force as well, but it's been tested to pretty similar amounts of torque as the VR6 kit does, around 280-300 ft-lbs).

It IS rattle-free. This is effectively the same clutch kit the Mk3/B4 TDIs came with from the factory (though most of those were LuK, the clamping forces are pretty similar). And those don't rattle at idle either...

Boraparts has the kit listed here: http://shopping.boraparts.com/product_info.php?products_id=286

I think I saw idparts is going to be selling these kits soon as well.

Also, if you want an upgraded clutch that holds even more force, Boraparts also sells DC clutch kits with a stronger pressure plate, used with the same 4 cylinder disk for rattle-free operation.

I had a VR6 kit on my Mk3 for a long time and switched out JUST the disk, re-used the old pressure plate, flywheel and even throwout bearing, and the abysmally loud rattle the car had been making for years is now reduced to being practically unnoticeable (unless you know what you're listening for).

Mk3/B4 cars seemed to rattle extra loud compared to ALHs with the VR6 kit... It was a very welcome change to have the rattle virtually eliminated.

I have since installed a few of these kits for other people with the same results; rattle-free single mass flywheel setup with clamping force about on par with the complete VR6 kit.

vwman2 · May 24, 2012

Im happy im not the only one! haha Thank you all for the help and im glad im not the only one! haha Im also glad it's nothing to worrie about.

VeeDubTDI · May 25, 2012

Yeah our Mk4 makes a serious racket with the clutch out in neutral. Eventually we'll upgrade it to the quieter one. For now - it works well and grips like a champ.

Yblocker · May 25, 2012

We were banging this drum for several weeks over the winter on this issue. There is no reason to live with that racket since the correct disc is available. Maybe we can put a sticky or general heads-up on this so those that are planning to upgrade/change to a SMF can benefit. I used that 4-cyl disc with the DC cover and it's very strong and totaly silent.

VeeDubTDI · May 25, 2012

Sure there's a reason... two, actually. Time and money.

Yblocker · May 25, 2012

Yeah, I agree. I meant those contemplating the switch in the future.

VeeDubTDI · May 25, 2012

Gotcha... definitely get the quiet one since it's available and everyone knows that there's a difference now.

Matt-98AHU · May 25, 2012

For those who want to read the thread where we nerded out on cross-referencing Sachs and VW part numbers: Here ya go!

Yblocker · May 25, 2012

Way to go nerd.

TDI817 · Aug 1, 2012

I wish I saw this thread earlier, Ive been searching around for a clutch for a long time. I ended up going with the Southbend stage 2 endurance clutch and a 14pound single mass flywheel on my 2006 Jetta TDI. At idle in neutral with the clutch fully engaged its not so bad. Its when I am in 1st gear slowing rolling though a parking lot at near idle engine speed that it sounds horrible. Im turning heads and getting a lot of unwanted attention. As long as its a "normal" sound and my transmission isn't going to shake itself apart I will learn to live with it.

WilliamDonald · Sep 6, 2017

Hello and thank you for resoonding

2012 VW Golf TDi single mass clutch flywheel install.. however after install and driving 5th and 6th gear makes a whining noise. What can. Be. Causing? Fluid Have been changed?
Thank you

Rrusse11 · Sep 6, 2017

When I put a SBC 2 End in my now deceased MkVI, it had the transmission rattle. Unfortunately VW changed the synchros from
machined brass to cast steel, SBC has changed now to the "quiet clutch". Note the springs on the clutch plate.

A known issue with the above was killing the synchros. Installing a
FluidAmpr fixed the problem. It's an oil filled crank pulley that acts
as a harmonic balancer. Really smooths out the engine.

Not a cheap option, they're running around $400 for the ALH, but for TDI817 running the light SMF, this is a good option. I've debated installing one of these coupled with a 17# SMF as I'm upgrading my drivetrain.

The Valeo SMF clutch that came with my auto>manual swap kit has the additional springs on the plate, and they work well. But with a 17/22 turbo and some DLC764's in the works, the Valeo just ain't gonna' cut it. Fortuitously the turbo seller also has a used SBC2 End
with the "quiet clutch" spring set up. I'll see how the setup works,
and may still go for a FluidAmpr down the track, having a better balanced crankshaft is a good thing IMO.

My $.02,
R*2

dubStrom · Sep 6, 2017

n1das said:
Clutch pedal on floor = clutch "in" = clutch NOT engaged (engine uncoupled from tranny).
Clutch pedal not being stepped on = clutch "out" = clutch fully engaged (engine coupled to tranny).

I know the terminology trips people up sometimes.

The VR6 setup is strong and very reliable clutch setup. It is good for light performance mods to the car. With a highly modified TDI producing some serious torque and hp, it won't be strong enough. Whether you'll need to upgrade it in the future depends on how far you want to travel down the slippery slope of performance modifications. If your staying bone stock with performance, you now have a strong and reliable clutch setup.

The rattle at idle in neutral is one of the tradeoffs made to have a stronger clutch setup.

Good luck and Welcome to TDIclub.

As Captain Picard would say, "Engage"

Regarding the sound. That jitter was explained to me by a local guru as the clutch (not transmission-input shaft spins, but it is in neutral) being decelerated, and accelerated every time the diesel's crankshaft compresses a piston (slows down), or speeds up (the combustion push). The high compression is a major reason for the more extreme accel/decel cycle in a diesel. I got a plain ol' clutch when I got the conversion done (by said guru). Yup, it is LOUD. I think I understood his explanation

I suppose it is possible that the gears that spin with the input shaft when in neutral contribute, but he suggested that the majority of the jitter is from the springs in the friction plate that are oscillating- compressed one way, then the other, rapidly at idle. (I called it the pressure plate by mistake-seatman is correct)

Seatman · Sep 6, 2017

n1das said:
The rattle sound is actually not coming from the flywheel. It's the sound of the gears in the transmission rattling while they spin unloaded when idling in neutral with the clutch out.

The TDI engine generates strong torque pulses at idle and these are normally damped out by the rubber band effect of the stock DMF at low RPMs. With the VR6 SMF clutch setup, you've traded away damping that was provided by the DMF to smooth out the torque input to the transmission. So now the torque pulses at idle are transmitted to the gear cluster as is spins and rattle the gears. The gears have some backlash and causes them to make the rattle as they repeatedly click together. Instead of a smooth rotation, it's a rapid speedup-slowdown-speedup-slowdown etc. type of rotation. It doesn't hurt anything because the gears are unloaded while spinning in neutral with the clutch out.

You may notice the rattle sound will be louder when everything is hot compared to being cold right after a cold start. The gear oil the tranny will be thinner when everything is hot and allow more rattle to happen. How full your transmission is with gear oil will affect it too. Also what weight SMF you're using will affect the rattle. Lighter SMFs will make the rattle worse. This is why it's recommended to stick with the stock (heavy) weight SMF instead of using a lighter version.

I've read in another thread that the particular clutch disk used may also affect the rattle with an SMF setup. The springs in the clutch disk may affect the amount of damping you get between the engine and transmission. With the VR6 setup you have, the rattle is normal.

Clear as mud, eh?

Good luck.

I had a seat cordoba with the AGR engine, (ALH with a wastegate turbo), came with the mk3 tdi clutch as standard but it didn't rattle even though it had the O2J type gearbox.

I always though it was the springs in the friction plate that caused the rattle with the vr6 kit?

Victor Huge · Sep 8, 2017

In regards to what rrusse said, i had the same experience, my first gear synchro blew up and I'm certain the smf had something to do with it. The moment i got the smf shifting was harder cause the friction disc is heavier with the springs in it, so i recommend anyone reading this seriously consider an upgraded dmf clutch setup if drivability and longetivity is a concern (so long as you don't plan on crazy upgrades)

Matt-98AHU · Sep 8, 2017

Once again, that depends on which disk was seleted. The VR6 disk, many people have gone plenty long before having an issue, but it still does rattle the transmission internals quite a bit. If you have the correct 4 cylinder disk, it makes a massive difference in how much vibrations are sent to the trans. Greatly reduces them and there is a very audible difference.

Later 02Js seem to use 3 piece synchros for 1st and 2nd gears and have finer teeth, not sure if those are more sensitive to vibrations or not... They still appear to be brass, though.

As always, ensuring you come to a complete stop, give the transmission a moment after depressing the clutch before pushing the lever into 1st is always the best method of operation. No forcing it. Use light effort on the lever and when things have spun down appropriately, it will go into gear easily with greatly reduced potential for damage.

Beyond that, gear oil also plays a big role. Many fluids that once upon a time were mentioned as being good for these gearboxes really aren't in my experience. My current favorite concoction is to use VW OEM fluid mixed with Red Line Shockproof Lightweight. I've had transmissions with hard shift issues resolved using this combo. Super slick shifting.

Victor Huge · Sep 8, 2017

Very good points Matt, however i want to point out that it will be noticeably harder to engage first with the SMF, that's the downside of having the extra weight of the springs on the pressure plate. This might not have been a problem had i done like you said and waited a second after clutching in to engage first (i tried to as often as i could, but sometimes you have to go quick).

Rrusse11 · Sep 8, 2017

Old school here, with some experience with a non synchro first in
my "60 Karmann Ghia. Double clutch first folks if you're still rolling. Learn to match the gear speeds/rpms/revs. Get it right and the gearshift will be effortless, with no strain on the synchros and gears whatsoever. Here's the sequence as you slow down for that steep uphill turn. Clutch in, shift from 2nd to neutral, clutch out. Touch of throttle to get the gearbox revs up. Clutch back in, get the revs right and you'll slide into first with nary a murmur, clutch back out. Now you're in first at 5-10mph.

Useful technique that is being lost in the world of auto trannies.
Like being able to drive a manual without a clutch, not something
you'll do everyday, but handy to know how in a pinch.

Some years ago now, I took lessons with a truck driving school in AU for semi operation. 40' flatbed trailer behind an old Mercedes diesel, 6spd with a diff splitter, technically an 18spd gearbox. High/Lo and and the option of engaging both sets of rear drive wheels.

ALL the gears were non synchro, you had to match the gears up and down. If you didn't get it right, it wouldn't go into gear. If you got close, it made nasty noises. The instructor told me if you can learn how to drive this, you can drive anything. It sure did teach me to pay attention to what was going on with the whole drivetrain.

Cheers,
R*2

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