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Fuels & Lubricants Discussion all about Fuels & Lubricants. synthetic oil, conventional oil, brands, change intervals, diesel grades, gelling and such debated items like that. Non TDI related postings will be moved or removed. This forum is NOT for the discussion of biodiesel and other alternative fuels.

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Old April 22nd, 2012, 10:14   #1
Hyates
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Default Fuel additive OK with 2012 TDI?

Hi Folks. We just purchased a 2012 Jetta TDI, and was wondering about the compatibility of using fuel additive with this engine and DPF system.
I have been using additves for years, but this DPF thing is new to me, and seems to have new requirements.
I use this:
http://www.lubecorp.com/products/premium_diesel_plus.html

Thanks,
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Old April 22nd, 2012, 10:21   #2
JSWTDI09
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You will find a lot of disagreement here about this one. Most good (modern) additives are safe to use in a new TDI. Whether they are necessary is a source of much discussion. A small sample below:

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=19111
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=339991
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=341890
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=332719
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=333741
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=350237

Have fun reading!

Don

P.S. The additive you mentioned says nothing about adding lubricity. For new Common Rail diesels, this might be the most important thing to look for in an additive. Modern ULSD has much lower (poorer) lubricating ability than old diesel fuel.
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Last edited by JSWTDI09; April 22nd, 2012 at 10:23.
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Old April 22nd, 2012, 10:33   #3
Hyates
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Awesome! Thanks for the links. It's a bit overwhelming catching up to the new standards for this engine.

Further down the page on the link I posted has more detailed information. This product lubricates as well:

"Lubricates and protects the entire fuel system preventing pump and injector failure."

H.
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Last edited by Hyates; April 22nd, 2012 at 10:36.
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Old April 22nd, 2012, 11:08   #4
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Hyates- I uses the lubecorp premium diesel plus as well in my 03 golf and my wifes 2010 A3. Lubecorp does specify its ashless- No issues with her DPF system- It's my favorite additive- Do you have it shipped from Calgary or can you buy it locally. I have to have it shipped as there are no dealers in eastern Canada.
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Old April 22nd, 2012, 19:55   #5
Hyates
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You can buy it in the Metro Vancouver area, but its hard to find. I get my brother-in-law to buy me a couple cases at a time from their plant in Calgary, and we usually meet up in the BC interior, so free shipping and no provincial taxes

Lubecorp makes a good product. Thanks for the confirmation.

H.
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Old April 22nd, 2012, 19:57   #6
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96,000 miles on my 09 with zero additives used to date.
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Old April 23rd, 2012, 17:38   #7
jgeorge
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Check out BNAC environmental- they're in the Vancouver area- Coquittlam BC. Its where i origanally ordered from, and its cheaper than if you order from lubecorp. When i drive out to Vancouver this summer i'm stopping there to pick up a case.

Last edited by jgeorge; April 23rd, 2012 at 17:43.
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Old September 15th, 2012, 18:33   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JSWTDI09 View Post
You will find a lot of disagreement here about this one. Most good (modern) additives are safe to use in a new TDI. Whether they are necessary is a source of much discussion. A small sample below:

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=19111
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=339991
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=341890
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=332719
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=333741
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=350237

Have fun reading!

Don

P.S. The additive you mentioned says nothing about adding lubricity. For new Common Rail diesels, this might be the most important thing to look for in an additive. Modern ULSD has much lower (poorer) lubricating ability than old diesel fuel.
I think this is the most disturbing part ... there doesn't seem to be any consensus here on using additives, and I have never heard anything from VW on the matter.
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Old September 15th, 2012, 19:09   #9
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I think it's less an issue with the higher quality Canada diesel. With low quality US diesel an additive is necessary, less for lubricity ability and more for combustion chamber and injector cleaning, IMO. Additive packages are added at the rack prior to delivery to the station so the question is the amount and quality of the additive.
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Old December 3rd, 2012, 11:03   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wensteph View Post
I think it's less an issue with the higher quality Canada diesel. With low quality US diesel an additive is necessary, less for lubricity ability and more for combustion chamber and injector cleaning, IMO. Additive packages are added at the rack prior to delivery to the station so the question is the amount and quality of the additive.
I agree about there being a lack of a general agreement and the fact that VW doesn't require additives may be because of there now being free maintenance for three years. If I remember correctly, VW used to recommend and use an additive in scheduled maintenance and that ended after the introduction of the included service program. They offer it for sale, but no longer do they use it even in servicing of TDIs. Cutting costs, or is it unnecessary?

Wensteph, how often do you think using a product like Stanadyne would be necessary should one choose to jump on the additive bandwagon? Every fill up or once in 1,000 miles for a good injector cleaning?

Last edited by vdubtdi11; December 3rd, 2012 at 11:07. Reason: Grammar
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Old December 3rd, 2012, 17:58   #11
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Here's the assurance from Stanadyne the leader in Diesel fuel addtives



Quote:
Originally Posted by Stanadyne

Q Are Stanadyne diesel fuel additives compatible with high pressure common rail fuel systems and will they harm exhaust aftertreatment systems?

A Stanadyne diesel fuel additives are compatible with all types of fuel systems and will not harm aftertreatment systems.
Aftermarket treatment systems = DPF
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Old December 3rd, 2012, 23:39   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by houstonmacbro View Post
... and I have never heard anything from VW on the matter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vdubtdi11 View Post
... and the fact that VW doesn't require additives may be because of there now being free maintenance for three years. If I remember correctly, VW used to recommend and use an additive in scheduled maintenance and that ended after the introduction of the included service program. They offer it for sale, but no longer do they use it even in servicing of TDIs. Cutting costs, or is it unnecessary?

VW does not recommend additives mainly for legal reasons.
1) They do not want to imply that additives are necessary as this would amount to admitting that they have a problem with US fuel.
2) They do not want to recommend any specific additive, because no additive company wants to pay them to recommend it. Also, they do not want to have to test all available additives to see which ones to recommend. VW does (or did) sell Stanadyne additives, but I suspect that they had a deal with Stanadyne to do so.

If VW actually recommended additives, they would have to test it and make sure that it was both safe and effective. There is no advantage to VW to spend this kind of money and effort for the reasons stated above.

As I see it, the problem with US diesel fuel is the inconsistency of the additive packages added by different retailers (the basic "raw" D2 is usually pretty much the same everywhere). Various tests of retail D2 have shown HFRR wear scars ranging everywhere from the 300s (excellent) to over 700 (terrible). Bosch (the makers of our HPFPs) says that wear scars over 460 will cause excessive wear and earlier failures to their pumps. Whether or not you add a lubricity additive depends on how much you trust the retailers from whom you buy your fuel. Only you can decide about this. There is no agreement about additive use, just as there is no agreement about brands of coffee, or political parties. This is a (more or less) free country and everyone must choose for themselves. All we can do here is to try to make sure that people are well informed about the choices they have.

Have Fun!

Don
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Old December 4th, 2012, 05:20   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JSWTDI09 View Post
VW does not recommend additives mainly for legal reasons.
1) They do not want to imply that additives are necessary as this would amount to admitting that they have a problem with US fuel.
2) They do not want to recommend any specific additive, because no additive company wants to pay them to recommend it. Also, they do not want to have to test all available additives to see which ones to recommend. VW does (or did) sell Stanadyne additives, but I suspect that they had a deal with Stanadyne to do so.

If VW actually recommended additives, they would have to test it and make sure that it was both safe and effective. There is no advantage to VW to spend this kind of money and effort for the reasons stated above.

As I see it, the problem with US diesel fuel is the inconsistency of the additive packages added by different retailers (the basic "raw" D2 is usually pretty much the same everywhere). Various tests of retail D2 have shown HFRR wear scars ranging everywhere from the 300s (excellent) to over 700 (terrible). Bosch (the makers of our HPFPs) says that wear scars over 460 will cause excessive wear and earlier failures to their pumps. Whether or not you add a lubricity additive depends on how much you trust the retailers from whom you buy your fuel. Only you can decide about this. There is no agreement about additive use, just as there is no agreement about brands of coffee, or political parties. This is a (more or less) free country and everyone must choose for themselves. All we can do here is to try to make sure that people are well informed about the choices they have.

Have Fun!

Don
No.

There is not one credible piece of data, not one scientific study, not one controlled double-blind fact filled article that any additive manufacturer has ever produced that shows there is any advantage to using additives for engines with no problems whatsoever.

Every single engine manufacturer has stated for all to see plainly and in print that additives to both fuel and oil are not recommended except in special circumstances.

The fact remains that all diesel fuel is not born the same from the distillery and the brand name producers tailor their additives to the base fuel to adhere to ULSD standards. There is no guarantee that using an additive does not upset this chemistry to make it worse, nor is there ever any mention of adverse side effects of any additive on the market.

Its all for the sale folks. The onus should be on the additive manufacturer and there has never been any legitimate proof that their products are needed when there is no problem with the fuel or engine to begin with. Ever.

TM
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Old December 4th, 2012, 07:07   #14
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TinMan: You are entitled to your own set of facts. That's the beauty of this country.

Casual reader/newbees...Do your own research here. There always will be misinformed posts.

Keep in mind: The requirements of a 09>>>CR TDI fuel system are dramatically different than previous generation TDIs, especially lubricity requirements. This thread is about a 2012 CR TDI.
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Old December 4th, 2012, 08:08   #15
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Tin Man I don't think it's exactly the same thing for a manufacturer to not "recommend" you use an additive as to say that using an additive is "not recommended". One says that it's unnecessary and the other says it's harmful.

You say there are no double blind studies indicating that additives are beneficial but one could counter that by saying there isn't any evidence that they are harmful either.

One thing that's important to me, it is an incontrovertible fact that diesel fuel standards, specifically in terms of lubricity and cetane are considerably lower in the U.S. than in Europe (the market our cars were designed for).

As for VW and other manufacturers not "recommending" an additive, you have to ask yourself if you think the lawyers and bean counters at VW would make a decision that would lower their liability if the consequence of that decision would be a slight increase in failures, especially if most of those failures would occur after the expiration of the warranty?

If VW recommended an additive, they are essentially saying that they are selling a car in the U.S. that's not suitable for U.S. spec fuel, this opens them up to tremendous amounts of potential liability including super expensive class action lawsuits. Anyone with a fuel system failure could sue VW and use the additive "recommendation" as evidence that VW knew their cars weren't up to snuff.

Also if VW wanted to recommend an additive, they would need to recommend a specific additives if not multiple ones (otherwise people would be putting snake oil in their cars), which would mean they would have to spend money testing and certifying those additives and for what benefit (how does that help VW the company?)

You can be sure that VW will look out for their own interests even if it harms their customers over the long term.

I will agree that we as owners assume some risk when we put an additive in our tanks, but IMO we need to ask ourselves if that risk is enough to offset the reduced risk that we will have a fuel system failure because we use an additive. For me that answer is not even close.
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