www.tdiclub.com

Economy - Longevity - Performance
The #1 Source of TDI Information on the Web!
Forums TDIFAQ Articles Links Meets
Orders TDI Club Cards TDIFest 2013 Gone, but not forgotten VAG-Com List Unit Conversions TDIClub Chat Thank You



Go Back   TDIClub Forums > VW TDI Discussion Areas > TDI Power Enhancements

TDI Power Enhancements Discussions about increasing the power of your TDI engine. i.e. chips, injectors, powerboxes, clutches, etc. Handling, suspensions, wheels, type discussion should be put into the "Upgrades (non TDI Engine related)" forum. Non TDI vehicle related postings will be moved or removed. Please note the Performance Disclaimer.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old December 14th, 2011, 08:04   #31
JFettig
 
JFettig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Forest Lake, MN
TDI(s): B5 Passat
Fuel Economy: 42 MPG
Default

if you know how to use them, telescoping gauges can work very well in combination of a good micrometer. I frequently see people mis-using them, it is sometimes hard to get a good measurement on them if you can't feel it just right.
__________________
Malone Tuning Dealer Tuning 1996 to present, including Common Rail and DSG!
1998 B5 Passat TDI 234hp/373ft-lbs
2009 JSW Stage 3 196whp so far
ECU Socketing
DIY injector calibration http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=383324
JFettig is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 14th, 2011, 08:09   #32
Ski in NC
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Wilmington, NC USA
Fuel Economy: 48-52 typical
Default

To accurately measure bores, I use three tools: A dial bore gauge, a micrometer, and a standard. The bore gauge has to be set using the mic, and the standard is used to make sure the mic is dead on. The bore gauge is handy as you can sweep the bore in numerous areas while watching the dial. Also, on little engines you can't get your hands in the bore with an inside mic, another tool that works. Inside mics are slow to take measurements.

Check ENCO in NV, they have good prices on measuring tools. I use name brands, but that took quite an investment. A bore gauge can be an off brand (usually) as you can check the performance of the tool with the mic. It really is just a transfer tool.

I've tried using bore snap gauges, but it is hard to get accurate measurements.
__________________
2001 Jetta TDI 5sp Stock 201k mi
1981 Rabbit IDI 4sp Sold at 339k mi
1990 S-10 4.3 4wd 5sp 154k mi
1986 VW Pathfinder 1.6 45hp Marine 4700 Hrs
2001 Cummins 8.3 420hp Marine 1660Hrs..REFIT DONE!!
Ski in NC is online now   Reply With Quote
Old December 14th, 2011, 08:14   #33
john.jackson9213
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Miramar, Ca. (Think Top Gun)
TDI(s): 1996 B4V
Default

What is the down side to bore out the block? Cost of new pistons and the machine shop cost? At least you would know the bore is true. And you are going to buy some new pistons anyway, right?

Just asking - not advocating.

Also, what needs to be done to boost the power between 1000 to 2000 rpm??? Smaller turbo?
__________________
JJ
1996 B4V, Hella E-Codes, full GLX leather, EuroTuning.cz 02A 6 speed conversion w/.71 5th and .588 6th gear, A4 shift linkage and trans tower conversion by Matt-98AHU, Sprint 520 nozzles, GQ ecu w/TDtuning stage 3, 20 lbs. boost, 112 hp and 224 lb/ft tq. at the wheels (as of 12/1/12) Koni Yellows and Big Brake 5 lug conversion.

Last edited by john.jackson9213; December 14th, 2011 at 08:17.
john.jackson9213 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 14th, 2011, 08:19   #34
JFettig
 
JFettig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Forest Lake, MN
TDI(s): B5 Passat
Fuel Economy: 42 MPG
Default

Here are a couple how-to use a telescoping "snap" gauge properly:
http://constructionmanuals.tpub.com/...s/14256_93.htm
http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/sho...10&postcount=2

Once it is tightened up inside the bore, carefully make sure you're in the center, then tip it like above. at this point, don't tighten it any more. carefully measure it. You will get some varying measurements but with practice you can get good at it. I can typically measure stuff to about .0005" with them.
__________________
Malone Tuning Dealer Tuning 1996 to present, including Common Rail and DSG!
1998 B5 Passat TDI 234hp/373ft-lbs
2009 JSW Stage 3 196whp so far
ECU Socketing
DIY injector calibration http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=383324
JFettig is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 14th, 2011, 08:31   #35
Keebler145
Veteran Member
 
Keebler145's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Niles, Ohio
Fuel Economy: ~45
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fix_Until_Broke View Post
Ok - lots of comments to address here...

All of the other things that the car needs (suspension and such) are definately needed and way beyond overdue. Then combining the engine repair/replacement now and everything associated with that, I just wanted to make sure that I wasn't "polishing a turd" here. The overwhelming consensus is that it should be fixed and I agree with that. This car has done everything I've ever asked of it, thousands of miles pulling trailer, my dependable daily transportation, excelllent mileage (52+ MPG average over lifetime). I know what this car is/is not and buying something new/used would start that learning curve over and besides that I like the car .

That said, now to decide how/what to repair this thing. It sure seems that lowering the compresion would help keep peak cylinder pressures and piston temps down. Lower compression will generally loose thermal efficiency but might prevent this from happening. ~18.5:1 would be about as low as I'd want to go to insure good starting in the winter. Any opinions on a thermal barrier on the tops of the pistons - Maybe keeping the 19.5:1 CR for good starting and a thermal barier would make the pistons live? I'm aiming to improve power in the 1000-2000 RPM range so this is the time to make any changes/improvements to support that.

I'm assuming that this failure was due to thermal stress on the pistons, most likely from towing and resultant operation at continuious high loads for hours on end. If I get it apart and find the oil squirter plugged on #3 pistion or some other evidence of another cause of the piston failure, I'll let everyone know. EMP's during the heavy trailer towing are equal to boost and IAT's are ~50F over ambient. A larger oil cooler would probably be a good idea (no oil temp gauge, but will be getting one).

My trusted mechanic is adamant that the block should be bored/trued up and that it's probably not round and would have trouble sealing the rings if it was just honed. I'm going to try and get a 3-4" micrometer and bore gauge to see if the cylinder is true enough to hone or not. Given the marks on cylinder 2 in particular it could be either way.

What about a complete engine swap? A PD150 and 6 speed from across the pond?

Are there any 16 valve motors that will more/less go in?

A CR without all the emissions stuff would be cool as well?



I guess all the statements I've made about "Well, it has not blow up yet" are no longer valid .

I think it was pretty unanimous most of us said ASV with ceramic coating for stock compression and better thermal control or pd150 pistons to drop compression which have thicker crowns and would also have better thermal control. Matt makes a valid point on getting some rosten rods, it's cheap insurance.

I don't know that a 1756 will lower your EMP and EGT. You need to get a bigger exhaust wheel to really accomplish that. Not sure why you want to make more power in the 1000-2000 range, really not good for the motor. At that RPM you're really lugging the old girl and stressing the internals.

If you're going to do that definitely make sure you get an OEM weight or maybe heavier flywheel. If you're going to drive it like an old farm tractor you better build it like one.
__________________

424,000 miles and counting, On the frame that is (as of sold date)
Gt2256v 3 in downpipe and vibrant resonator, 3in OMI and FMIC all by Whitbread, Titan 520's, Port & Polished Head courtesy Franko6, RC 6, 11mm IP, PD LiftPump. Rosten Rods, PD150 Pistons, Oil Cooler, Fuel Cooler, Diablo W/M Kit,DC III clutch, Built 5 speed with LSD

Last edited by Keebler145; December 14th, 2011 at 08:35.
Keebler145 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 14th, 2011, 09:51   #36
Fix_Until_Broke
Veteran Member
 
Fix_Until_Broke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Menomonee Falls, Wisconsin, USA
Fuel Economy: 75.0/53.0/38.4
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by john.jackson9213 View Post
What is the down side to bore out the block? Cost of new pistons and the machine shop cost? At least you would know the bore is true. And you are going to buy some new pistons anyway, right?

Just asking - not advocating.

Also, what needs to be done to boost the power between 1000 to 2000 rpm??? Smaller turbo?
If I can just hone the bores for new pistons/rings, then I don't have to remove the engine from the car saving a fair ammount of time/effort. If it has to come out, it will, but being generally lazy, I'd rather not if I don't have to.
__________________
03 Jetta, Cat 2u, DG Steel SP w/MOGolf Mod, 3"DP, 4"EXH, EaBP110 Bypass, Euroswitch, ECodes, Driving Light, PD Lift Pump, R520's, RC5,RC6, TDTuning, Malone, ScanGaugeII, 3" TIP, 2" TOP, GTC1444VZ, 3 Bar MAP, VR6 MAF, Vented Fender Liner, Battery Cover Mod, 11mm, Monster Mats, 215/55/17 (27.9/53.0/75) Monthly MPG Links, Euro Trunk Latch, IDParts RSB, SDI or ALH Intake, ASV Ceramic Pistons, Rosten Rods, DRW, Wavetrac, SBC, FSD's, Beef Springs, Rebuilt Head, Recaro's, Colt II, DG Sigma 6
Fix_Until_Broke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 14th, 2011, 10:20   #37
Whitbread
 
Whitbread's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Richmond, MI
Fuel Economy: mid 40's with mixed spirited driving
Default

Here's a good metric DBG for reasonable cost, I presume you have access to a 3-4" mic and 3" standard http://www.goodson.com/store/template/product_detail.php?IID=6252&SID=d95b7e048bc6021d03 69581cf68172ec
__________________
02 Jetta TDI
Whitbread Performance Innovations
-Full TDI performance and custom fabrication services. 248-755-8118.

Last edited by Whitbread; December 14th, 2011 at 10:22.
Whitbread is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 14th, 2011, 10:57   #38
Fix_Until_Broke
Veteran Member
 
Fix_Until_Broke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Menomonee Falls, Wisconsin, USA
Fuel Economy: 75.0/53.0/38.4
Default

Are the PD150 and ASV pistions interchangable? Bowls in the same location, etc?

I assume the PD150's have a larger bowl to drop the compression? Any idea what the CR drops to on with the PD150's

Swaintech for coatings I assume? Anyone else who does coatings like this?

I think I have all the measurement equipment lined up and will try and measure the bores tonight.

I've wanted to put a heavier flywheel in for a long time - figured it would smooth things out quite a bit.

Regarding lugging and stress on the internals, I think the pistons and rods should address a lot of that. I'm not looking to make 200 HP at 2000 RPM, but just extend the power curve down the RPM range. BMEP's are significantly lower (half) than some of the 200+HP 400+ft-lb TDI's out there.

Maybe to ask another loaded question....OEM head bolts or ARP's?
__________________
03 Jetta, Cat 2u, DG Steel SP w/MOGolf Mod, 3"DP, 4"EXH, EaBP110 Bypass, Euroswitch, ECodes, Driving Light, PD Lift Pump, R520's, RC5,RC6, TDTuning, Malone, ScanGaugeII, 3" TIP, 2" TOP, GTC1444VZ, 3 Bar MAP, VR6 MAF, Vented Fender Liner, Battery Cover Mod, 11mm, Monster Mats, 215/55/17 (27.9/53.0/75) Monthly MPG Links, Euro Trunk Latch, IDParts RSB, SDI or ALH Intake, ASV Ceramic Pistons, Rosten Rods, DRW, Wavetrac, SBC, FSD's, Beef Springs, Rebuilt Head, Recaro's, Colt II, DG Sigma 6
Fix_Until_Broke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 14th, 2011, 11:11   #39
Keebler145
Veteran Member
 
Keebler145's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Niles, Ohio
Fuel Economy: ~45
Default

PD150's drop it a whole point IIRC so 18.5. I never measure, but from the eye they look like they have a larger bowl.

Swaintech is about the only one I know of. ASV and PD150 pistons are interchangeable on rosten rods but the OEM rods need tapered to fit a PD150 piston IIRC again.

When I bought my ARP headstuds they were only 80 bucks more than buying headbolts. Knowing I would be pulling the head again I bought something I could reuse. I had issues with the headbolts stretching and lifting on me at 24psi on a 17/22. My coolant bottle was always over pressurized and had soot in it.

Flushed the coolant installed the headstuds and the problem went away.
__________________

424,000 miles and counting, On the frame that is (as of sold date)
Gt2256v 3 in downpipe and vibrant resonator, 3in OMI and FMIC all by Whitbread, Titan 520's, Port & Polished Head courtesy Franko6, RC 6, 11mm IP, PD LiftPump. Rosten Rods, PD150 Pistons, Oil Cooler, Fuel Cooler, Diablo W/M Kit,DC III clutch, Built 5 speed with LSD
Keebler145 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 14th, 2011, 11:13   #40
Whitbread
 
Whitbread's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Richmond, MI
Fuel Economy: mid 40's with mixed spirited driving
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fix_Until_Broke View Post
Are the PD150 and ASV pistions interchangable? Bowls in the same location, etc?

I assume the PD150's have a larger bowl to drop the compression? Any idea what the CR drops to on with the PD150's

Swaintech for coatings I assume? Anyone else who does coatings like this?

I think I have all the measurement equipment lined up and will try and measure the bores tonight.

I've wanted to put a heavier flywheel in for a long time - figured it would smooth things out quite a bit.

Regarding lugging and stress on the internals, I think the pistons and rods should address a lot of that. I'm not looking to make 200 HP at 2000 RPM, but just extend the power curve down the RPM range. BMEP's are significantly lower (half) than some of the 200+HP 400+ft-lb TDI's out there.

Maybe to ask another loaded question....OEM head bolts or ARP's?
Yes, they are basically the same. PD150's are 18.5:1 CR, the ASV's are 19.5 like ALH's.

I've used both Swaintech and Polydyn, been very happy with both.

Do the ARP's, again very cheap insurance at this point. Literally I just did a head gasket on a car with a stock turbo that was pressurizing coolant yesterday. It'll never be easier than now to fix all the factory short comings.
__________________
02 Jetta TDI
Whitbread Performance Innovations
-Full TDI performance and custom fabrication services. 248-755-8118.
Whitbread is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 14th, 2011, 21:20   #41
Fix_Until_Broke
Veteran Member
 
Fix_Until_Broke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Menomonee Falls, Wisconsin, USA
Fuel Economy: 75.0/53.0/38.4
Default

Here's the cylinder bore measurements. I used a telescoping bore gauge and a 3-4" micrometer. The micrometer was ~0.0005" large on both the 3" and 4" gauge blocks at room temp. I let them set in the garage for a couple hours to get to the same temp as the engine (~40F). It took a few measurements to get the hang of it - I repeated the first 8 measurements I took after I completed the first set and got more consistent numbers with the other bores the 2nd time. I double checked most of them by the time it was all done. My guess is that the numbers are +0.0000"/-0.0010"

- means side to side across the bore
| means frint to back across the bore

Top of bore just below where the rings stop
#1 - 3.1320"
#1 | 3.1318"

#2 - 3.1310"
#2 | 3.1315"

#3 - 3.1315"
#3 | 3.1320"

#4 - 3.1300"
#4 | 3.1320" I did these two 4-5 times and it's about 0.0020" different

Bottom of bore just above top of piston
#1 - 3.1300"
#1 | 3.1310"

#2 - 3.1310"
#2 | 3.1310"

#3 - 3.1315"
#3 | 3.1310"

#4 - 3.1300"
#4 | 3.1305"


I don't have my bentley manual at hand (left it at my friends shop 250 miles away), but 79.5mm = 1.1299 inches so being 1-2 thousandths over and relatively round for the most part does not make me think it needs to be bored out/trued up.

Flex hone it in the car, new pistons, etc and get it back on the road?

Should the cylinders be honed with a torque plate?

I'm going to find accurate TDC and mark the flywheel as long as it's apart.

Anything else I should do while I'm here?
__________________
03 Jetta, Cat 2u, DG Steel SP w/MOGolf Mod, 3"DP, 4"EXH, EaBP110 Bypass, Euroswitch, ECodes, Driving Light, PD Lift Pump, R520's, RC5,RC6, TDTuning, Malone, ScanGaugeII, 3" TIP, 2" TOP, GTC1444VZ, 3 Bar MAP, VR6 MAF, Vented Fender Liner, Battery Cover Mod, 11mm, Monster Mats, 215/55/17 (27.9/53.0/75) Monthly MPG Links, Euro Trunk Latch, IDParts RSB, SDI or ALH Intake, ASV Ceramic Pistons, Rosten Rods, DRW, Wavetrac, SBC, FSD's, Beef Springs, Rebuilt Head, Recaro's, Colt II, DG Sigma 6
Fix_Until_Broke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 15th, 2011, 11:46   #42
Fix_Until_Broke
Veteran Member
 
Fix_Until_Broke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Menomonee Falls, Wisconsin, USA
Fuel Economy: 75.0/53.0/38.4
Default

Piston coating is ~$250 + Shipping and takes ~2 weeks turnaround.

Is it worth it?
__________________
03 Jetta, Cat 2u, DG Steel SP w/MOGolf Mod, 3"DP, 4"EXH, EaBP110 Bypass, Euroswitch, ECodes, Driving Light, PD Lift Pump, R520's, RC5,RC6, TDTuning, Malone, ScanGaugeII, 3" TIP, 2" TOP, GTC1444VZ, 3 Bar MAP, VR6 MAF, Vented Fender Liner, Battery Cover Mod, 11mm, Monster Mats, 215/55/17 (27.9/53.0/75) Monthly MPG Links, Euro Trunk Latch, IDParts RSB, SDI or ALH Intake, ASV Ceramic Pistons, Rosten Rods, DRW, Wavetrac, SBC, FSD's, Beef Springs, Rebuilt Head, Recaro's, Colt II, DG Sigma 6
Fix_Until_Broke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 15th, 2011, 11:49   #43
Keebler145
Veteran Member
 
Keebler145's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Niles, Ohio
Fuel Economy: ~45
Default

definitely worth it. especially for low rpm higher egt running like you want to do!
__________________

424,000 miles and counting, On the frame that is (as of sold date)
Gt2256v 3 in downpipe and vibrant resonator, 3in OMI and FMIC all by Whitbread, Titan 520's, Port & Polished Head courtesy Franko6, RC 6, 11mm IP, PD LiftPump. Rosten Rods, PD150 Pistons, Oil Cooler, Fuel Cooler, Diablo W/M Kit,DC III clutch, Built 5 speed with LSD
Keebler145 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 15th, 2011, 12:16   #44
john.jackson9213
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Miramar, Ca. (Think Top Gun)
TDI(s): 1996 B4V
Default

Should the head also be coated? OEM't the goal to keep as much heat in the.cylinder as possible to push the piston down?
__________________
JJ
1996 B4V, Hella E-Codes, full GLX leather, EuroTuning.cz 02A 6 speed conversion w/.71 5th and .588 6th gear, A4 shift linkage and trans tower conversion by Matt-98AHU, Sprint 520 nozzles, GQ ecu w/TDtuning stage 3, 20 lbs. boost, 112 hp and 224 lb/ft tq. at the wheels (as of 12/1/12) Koni Yellows and Big Brake 5 lug conversion.
john.jackson9213 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 15th, 2011, 12:38   #45
IndigoBlueWagon
Principal IDPartsVendor
w/Business number
 
IndigoBlueWagon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: South of Boston
Default

Does anyone have any data that shows coating pistons in a diesel helps? Diesels run relatively cool compared to gasoline engines. I've debated doing this for my track day Golf. I'm not even sure what data would be useful, but I wonder if it's worth the expense.
__________________
2002 Jetta wagon, 289K, RC4+ and other stuff; 1993 Mercedes-Benz 300D 2.5, 192K; 1997 Passat, 264K; 2012 Golf, 19K; 1990 Miata, 67K. Principal, http://www.idparts.com
Kid's cars: 2013 Jetta S, 2000 2-door Golf TDI, 1998 Jetta TDI
IndigoBlueWagon is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Has anyone used radiator leak stop to stop a heater core leak??? Pcar993 VW MKIV-A4 TDIs (VE and PD) 12 October 30th, 2012 19:04
Miami to SC State Line Rest Stop Non-stop jeffstoked TDI Fuel Economy 1 November 27th, 2007 08:35
I need to stop... TylerSales TDI 101 13 March 16th, 2006 18:10
Truck stop fuel always better then non-truck stop? 03GolfTDI Fuels & Lubricants 10 July 3rd, 2003 08:03


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 22:39.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright - TDIClub Online LTD - 2014
Contact Us | Privacy Statement | Forum Rules | Disclaimer
TDIClub Online Ltd (TDIClub.com) is not affiliated with the VWoA or VWAG and is supported by contributions from viewers like you.
1996 - 2013, All Rights Reserved
Page generated in 0.17810 seconds with 10 queries
[Output: 152.25 Kb. compressed to 129.84 Kb. by saving 22.41 Kb. (14.72%)]