The Delphi DFP 6 High Pressure Fuel Pump Thread.

Niner

duplicate account, banned
Joined
Jun 3, 2011

N2UADTDI

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 16, 2009
Location
New Jersey
TDI
2009 Jetta Sedan DSG
I wonder if there's some way to contact the engineer that was hired directly. Off the record I wonder what he might be able to tell us?
Can we get one of these pumps? Are they for sale some where?
 

Softrockrenegade

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 25, 2011
Location
Howellbama, NJ
TDI
None...2011 Golf DSG (replaced by VW W/) 2013 Passat SE 6M(bought back) Current 2017 sportwagen TSI 4Motion.
Here is my email to and reply from Delphi :

Hi Ryan,
Thank you for your email. *I would suggest that the best approach is to work directly with your dealer to address the pump concerns. *The Delphi pump is not an appropriate replacement in this instance.

Thank you!
Lynn
________________________________________
From: Ryan Schaefer [rndydscrbsetrnty@yahoo.com]
Sent: Monday, October 10, 2011 8:14 PM
To: Kier, Lynn
Subject: Dfp6 pump inquiry

Lynn,
*Is the new DFP6 pump compatible with vw 2.0 liter CR TDI engine(2009-2012) as a direct replacement for the Bosch hpfp ? Thank you for your time , myself and many CR TDI owners are anxiously awaiting a solution to the Bosch hpfp catastrophe in our cars .

****Best regards,
*******Ryan Schaefer
 

Niner

duplicate account, banned
Joined
Jun 3, 2011
They response I received:

Thank you for your inquiry on Delphi Diesel Products.

The Delphi DF96 is customized to meet each OE application we are installed on.

We do not know, nor do we recommend fitting any Delphi product to other product it was not originally engineered into.

Thank you again for your inquiry.

Best Regards,



Brian Holtcamp

Delphi Diesel Aftermarket Operations

North America

Phone - 248-280-8317

Cell - 248-925-6589

Fax - 248-280-8280

e-mail - brian.k.holtcamp@delphi.com


I think that the pump is doable on a 2.0 CR, but instead of a 9mm or 8mm plunger for a 1200cc 3 banger, they would need to up the plunger size a bit to maybe a 10 or 11mm plunger, or maybe a 25% larger amount of flow plunger over that for a 1.2 liter motor. A 4 banger would be 1600 cc and ours is a 4 banger 2000cc, so we'd need 20% more flow, aproximately.

Someone needs to measure the high and low point on the cam of a Bosch cp4s1, and also the diameter of the steel plunger, to determine volume of flow per stroke, plus deadhead space in the chamber.
 

Softrockrenegade

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 25, 2011
Location
Howellbama, NJ
TDI
None...2011 Golf DSG (replaced by VW W/) 2013 Passat SE 6M(bought back) Current 2017 sportwagen TSI 4Motion.
I thought I read that this pump will work with up to a 2.2L engine ?
 

specsalot

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 30, 2011
Location
Florida
TDI
Currently none
The May 11th 2010 Delphi press release contains a number of clues about the development status of the pump. Here is a link to the press release

http://delphi.com/about/news/media/pressReleases/pr_2010_05_11_001/

Here are phrase clues (in red) from the press release:

The system in this vehicle can deliver up to six injection events per combustion cycle

Its design combines a relatively small specific capacity of up to 0.42 cc/rev with the capability to run at engine speed to provide flexibility for efficient utilization on a range of engine sizes up to 2.2 liters.


The twin lobe cam offers two pumping events per revolution reducing the number of pump strokes needed.
On later 4-cylinder engine applications, one further advantage will be the opportunity of running the pump at engine speed in combination with a twin cam lobe to generate pumping synchronized with injection

Injecting 6 events / combustion cycle on a 3 cylinder engine implies at most two injections per cylinder firing event. The balance piston solenoid operated injectors made by Delphi are still probably not as fast the piezo units manufactured by Bosch. I think Bosch claimed that their piezo's were 4X as fast as traditional solenoid operated injectors. So Delphi seems to have doubled solenoid injector speed. On the VW 3 cyl engine the DFP6 must be turning at 2/3's engine crankshaft speed to achieve 6 injections events per engine cycle using a dual lobe rotor in the pump.

The last about dual lobs / 4 cyl. synchronizing implies that adapting this pump to the 2.0L CR I4 engines was probably already underway, but not yet in production anywhere. We need to keep a close watch on MY2012 Passat vehicles. They may be the first to get this pump. We've already learned from OilHammer that the MY2012 TDI Passat's will utilize solenoid operated rather than piezo electric fuel injectors. Sounds like his technical literature anticipates movement toward the Delphi components.
 
Last edited:

GraniteRooster

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 15, 2010
Location
Upper Valley NH
TDI
'12 JSW 6MT
Injecting 6 events / combustion cycle on a 3 cylinder engine implies at most two injections per cylinder firing event. The balance piston solenoid operated injectors made by Delphi are still probably not as fast the piezo units manufactured by Bosch. I think Bosch claimed that their piezo's were 4X as fast as traditional solenoid operated injectors. So Delphi seems to have doubled solenoid injector speed. On the VW 3 cyl engine the DFP6 must be turning at 2/3's engine crankshaft speed to achieve 6 injections events per engine cycle using a dual lobe rotor in the pump.

The last about dual lobs / 4 cyl. synchronizing implies that adapting this pump to the 2.0L CR I4 engines was probably already underway, but not yet in production anywhere. We need to keep a close watch on MY2012 Passat vehicles. They may be the first to get this pump. We've already learned from OilHammer that the MY2012 TDI Passat's will utilize solenoid operated rather than piezo electric fuel injectors. Sounds like his technical literature anticipates movement toward the Delphi components.
That is an interesting find!! I read the 6x events / combustion cycle as implied "per cylinder"? Meaning one more than the 5x per "work cycle" Bosch discusses on p.30 of CR Study Guide - am I thinking about this right? Delphi Rail pressure is also higher at 2000 bar - I wonder of the Delphi system actually outperforms the Bosch injection resolution? Higher pressure would support faster injection, finer control.

Re: running pump @ crankshaft speed:
1) aren't the current Bosch pumps turning 2x crankshaft speed due to pulley sizes, and stroking 4x crankshaft speed due to pulleys + dual lobes?
2) How does the cc/rev of the Bosch pump compare to the 0.42cc/rev of the Delphi pump? Have you measured the stroke and plunger diameter?

Here is an interesting quote from the article you cite:

"An additional advantage of Delphi's design involves the specific roller and shoe mechanism. The twin lobe cam offers two pumping events per revolution reducing the number of pump strokes needed. On later 4-cylinder engine applications, one further advantage will be the opportunity of running the pump at engine speed in combination with a twin cam lobe to generate pumping synchronized with injection. It is an effective means to achieve the lowest possible emissions at the highest performance level.

The roller cam shoe mechanism has been optimized for reduced torque, dynamic mass, and noise via the Delphi patented static shoe guide. The component is pressed straight into the housing so that the shoe guide, different from previous solutions, does not oscillate during pump operation keeping the dynamic mass low, permitting a small plunger return spring size and optimum packaging geometry. The design safely prevents the shoe on the DFP6 pump from lateral rotation which eliminates the risk of fatal pump damage and allows for a mass of just 2.4kg"

Two full paragraphs trumpeting rollercam design - A thinly disguised slap at the Bosch roller follower? :cool:

I smell blood in the water... when can I haz a DFP6 pleaze? It is very satisfying to see this coming from Troy, Michigan USA based Delphi (even if it was designed in Spain).

EDIT: Interesting Reading:

Delphi Multec Light Duty Diesel Common Rail System - PDF

[URL="http://delphi.com/manufacturers/auto/powertrain/diesel/crfs/multecdcr/"]Delphi Multec Light Duty Diesel Common Rail System [/URL]- Website
 
Last edited:

Elfnmagik

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 1, 2008
Location
Sherman's Ashtray
TDI
Currently De-Dub'd
Two full paragraphs trumpeting rollercam design - A thinly disguised slap at the Bosch roller follower? :cool:

I smell blood in the water...
Exactly what I thought when I stumbled upon it. Delphi's touted design features directly address the inherent problems with the Bosch pump almost as if they were contracted to solve them. My hope is that its public exposure continues to gain momentum and sheds more light on the culpability that everyday seems to become more apparent.
 

Niner

duplicate account, banned
Joined
Jun 3, 2011
Exactly what I thought when I stumbled upon it. Delphi's touted design features directly address the inherent problems with the Bosch pump almost as if they were contracted to solve them. My hope is that its public exposure continues to gain momentum and sheds more light on the culpability that everyday seems to become more apparent.
Credit goes to Elfnmagik for the find... when I read the link he put up, 3 or 4x, I felt that he'd found the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow for all us North American CR TDI lover /Bosch CP4.1 haters. Sooner or later, a CR TDI owner will have to deal with the nightmare of getting stuck perhaps in dangerous rush hour freeway or Interstate traffic conditions or out in the middle of the desert on a hot 115 F + day in the desert Southwest.
I just felt that the find, and the new pump design deserved it's own thread. I agree with Granite rooster on the 6x even per cylinder, though keep in mind, this new pump has been designed with Bluetec technology in mind, no after burn injection of large quantity of fuel to burn off the DPF.
However, with a little bit of engineering and planning, I am sure it could be adapted.
Thinking more about that burn off phase, I wonder how much heat that generates under the hood, and what it does to pump temps and fuel temps when a stationary regeneration takes place? Would that degenerate or displace the lube in diesel fuel? Many of these failures seem to occur when someone pulls into the garage, and a few hours later, they drive to the store and it dies on the way to the store.
The more I think about it, the more problems I see with those extreme heat cycles and doing burnoffs with DPF's versus going and using blue tec technology to keep things clean. That burnoff cycle is hell on everything plastic underneath that hood, severely shortening the life of the plastic components.
Of course, nothing will overcome the flawed Bosch designed pump with the ability to rotate the cam tophat roller follower laterally in the bore and out of alignment with the cam. Even a non engineer that has worked on valve drivetrains such as myself see that as a design flaw. If it doesn't need to rotate, then don't design it so that it can rotate... fix it, pin it, or design it so it can't.
Another blaring trumpet is the timeline... they designed this in conjunction with Volkswagen... why would VW go with Delphi when Bosch has done so much of their fuel pump work in the past? Necessity is the Mother of Invention. :D
 
Last edited:

Elfnmagik

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 1, 2008
Location
Sherman's Ashtray
TDI
Currently De-Dub'd
A lucky find it was. I was just Googling HPFP images.

Thinking more about that burn off phase, I wonder how much heat that generates under the hood, and what it does to pump temps and fuel temps when a stationary regeneration takes place?
That's a good theory, but I've got doubts. I shutdown last week in a full on regen. I popped the hood and started checking temps just by feel. The silver shrouded wires at the turbo were blazing hot, as was the whole area of the DPF/turbo, but amazingly components at the front, including the HPFP, were not abnormally hot. Now, how much is too hot for this pump we don't know.
 

740GLE

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 19, 2009
Location
NH
TDI
2015 Passat SEL, 2017 Alltrack SE; BB 2010 Sedan Man; 2012 Passat,
They may be the first to get this pump. We've already learned from OilHammer that the MY2012 TDI Passat's will utilize solenoid operated rather than piezo electric fuel injectors. Sounds

You want to back that up? I thought he was just stabbing at the dark, just like many here doing.
 

740GLE

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 19, 2009
Location
NH
TDI
2015 Passat SEL, 2017 Alltrack SE; BB 2010 Sedan Man; 2012 Passat,
btw i still think the rotating of the roller on the cam is caused by the failing pump, not why the pump fails.

Also when did bluetech technology delete a DPF and the need for regens? There will never be another on road diesel sold in the US that won't have a DPF.
 

specsalot

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 30, 2011
Location
Florida
TDI
Currently none
My comments below :D

You want to back that up? I thought he was just stabbing at the dark, just like many here doing.
OilHammer is a pro with a shop and very likely a budget for top of the line training materials. As high tech as these cars are, if you're a pro you need this info to work effectively. I'm pretty much assuming that he's already purchased MY2012 Passat training material. I can't back it up but trust that his business credibility is on the line with that kind of statement. He isn't as prone to guessing as the rest of us here.

btw i still think the rotating of the roller on the cam is caused by the failing pump, not why the pump fails.
I agree 100%. It's just a final stage manifestation of failure. BrokenTDI's pump ran that way until the wore to a point where he lost effective CR pump stroke and coded out on low CR pressure.

Also when did bluetech technology delete a DPF and the need for regens? There will never be another on road diesel sold in the US that won't have a DPF.
If I posted something which implied that blue tech or Ad Blue would eliminate the need for DFP's it was probably just my poor selection of words :( Diesel particulate filtration (I think) is here to stay. The central difference between vehicles that use "Ad Blue" and those that don't comes down to the process that is being used to reduce NOx. VW seems to do a better control over combustion conditions (low excess air via EGR) to reduce NOx. I believe the Ad Blue process (dilute urea) is associated with what's commonly referred to as "selective catalyst reduction". This approach is used in many power generation stations, and is also used on newer MB and BMW vehicles. We know from the "frozen inter-cooler" posts that all the EGR recirculation creates a lot of mung in the inter-cooler. VW is probably trying to migrate away from this side bar problem by moving to what is being used in bluetech vehicles. Solenoid operated injectors don't have the same level of control as piezo operated injectors. So the migration away from piezo to Dephi's design probably drives the migration to Ad Blue as well.

 
Last edited:

Sbeghan

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
Location
Triangle, NC
TDI
03 Jetta Wagon 5spd 390k mi
I'm curious, the injectors aren't part of the pump and all that is shared is the common fuel rail which just needs to be pressurized appropriately. Why does it matter if you use Bosch piezo injectors or another company's injectors with whatever pump? Why couldn't VW stick to piezo injectors and source the pump from another company (Delphi)?
 

specsalot

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 30, 2011
Location
Florida
TDI
Currently none
Delphi DFP6 Picture

Here's a smaller picture of the Delphi's DFP6 to stimulate discussion while keeping page width's bearable. Clearly this is where the best future of our CR TDI's lies.

 

Growler

Got Soot Vendor
Joined
Nov 24, 2003
Location
Millersport, Ohio
TDI
Schmutz, 2015 Golf Sportwagen DSG & Schnurren, 2001 Golf GL 2 door 5M
sure would be interesting to see how these look mounting flange & shaft taper wise..

I wonder how hard it would be to fit one up to a CR Jetta and see what happens.
 

Niner

duplicate account, banned
Joined
Jun 3, 2011
sure would be interesting to see how these look mounting flange & shaft taper wise..
I wonder how hard it would be to fit one up to a CR Jetta and see what happens.
Pretty sure it will fit, just is it set up with the proper bore and stroke going from a 1.2L 3 banger to a 2.0 4 banger, and will it flow enough fuel for the burnoff injection. Nothing some engineering with cam stroke and bore stroke won't handle, much like the Bosch 7mm, 8mm, 9mm, 10mm and 11mm plungers on a VP37.
 

Sbeghan

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
Location
Triangle, NC
TDI
03 Jetta Wagon 5spd 390k mi
Who's going to be the first to try to bolt it up and see? :)
If I had a CR and some money to blow I'd give it a go.
 

specsalot

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 30, 2011
Location
Florida
TDI
Currently none
I'm curious, the injectors aren't part of the pump and all that is shared is the common fuel rail which just needs to be pressurized appropriately. Why does it matter if you use Bosch piezo injectors or another company's injectors with whatever pump? Why couldn't VW stick to piezo injectors and source the pump from another company (Delphi)?
One of the values of going common rail is the flexibility of using equipment. As an example, in the 6.7L Ford PDF linked by honeydew, the Bosch 4.2 HPFP used on the Ford V8 is the same pump used on the Tourag V6.

The road block to mixing and matching components is the control signals that drive them. The Bosch piezo units are controlled by a Bosch Engine Control Module that communicates with the wider vehicle over a CAN bus. The electric signal controlling the injectors has a specific voltage. It's probably not likely that the Delphi injectors operate at the same voltage. The Bosch piezo's are probably at least twice as fast acting as the Delphi units. So even if the voltage was the same, if you wanted to drive solenoid operated Delphi injectors through the Bosch ECM, there would probably be a lot of re-programming required. If you were Bosch, would you reprogram your controls to accommodate a competitors components?
 

specsalot

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 30, 2011
Location
Florida
TDI
Currently none
Who's going to be the first to try to bolt it up and see? :)
If I had a CR and some money to blow I'd give it a go.
If I were VW, I'd already be working on this. The smart move for Bosch would be to license Delphi's design. Sound far-fetched? The Porsche 944 I have uses 2 balance shifts on the engine to compensate for the fact that it's not vertically oriented in the engine bay. Rather than reinvent the wheel, Porsche made a good business decision to license a fully developed design from Mitsubishi. Porsche fitted Mitsubishi balance shafts on all 944's and 928's sold. Bosch has to swallow their pride and approach Delphi on this I think.
 

Niner

duplicate account, banned
Joined
Jun 3, 2011
If I were VW, I'd already be working on this. The smart move for Bosch would be to license Delphi's design. Sound far-fetched? The Porsche 944 I have uses 2 balance shifts on the engine to compensate for the fact that it's not vertically oriented in the engine bay. Rather than reinvent the wheel, Porsche made a good business decision to license a fully developed design from Mitsubishi. Porsche fitted Mitsubishi balance shafts on all 944's and 928's sold. Bosch has to swallow their pride and approach Delphi on this I think.
Germans swallow their pride? Good luck with that one. Having had a german girl friend in the past that was never wrong... well, it didn't take long for me to figure out that she was the wrong gal for me.
 

dweisel

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jul 28, 2006
Location
Wheeling, West Virginia
TDI
dweisel isn't diesel anymore!
I'm curious, the injectors aren't part of the pump and all that is shared is the common fuel rail which just needs to be pressurized appropriately. Why does it matter if you use Bosch piezo injectors or another company's injectors with whatever pump? Why couldn't VW stick to piezo injectors and source the pump from another company (Delphi)?
Because there is a whole bunch of complicated electronics managing the fuel system. Its not like you can just switch out a different hpfp or injectors from another manufacturer.
 

GraniteRooster

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 15, 2010
Location
Upper Valley NH
TDI
'12 JSW 6MT
Because there is a whole bunch of complicated electronics managing the fuel system. Its not like you can just switch out a different hpfp or injectors from another manufacturer.

We need to know the cc/rev comparison and mounting, and if those match up, then we have to see of the FMV control signals are the same or mounting interchangeable. If those things can be addressed, seems to me we can try a Delphi pump swap with existing Bosch controls
 

N2UADTDI

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 16, 2009
Location
New Jersey
TDI
2009 Jetta Sedan DSG
We need more data on how the PWM signal to the VW pump affects the pressure. A chart with pressure on one axis and pwm pulse data on the other. That would be a start. There are other factors such as response time - how fast can the pump change pressure in relation to it's input signal.
Then the same type of info for the Delphi pump. A small microprocessor to convert the VW signal to the Dephi format.

Test bench setups would need to be done to verify compatibility and function.

Or - another direction altogether. Make the VW pump more robust. Sleeve the bore with a steel liner.
 

Sbeghan

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
Location
Triangle, NC
TDI
03 Jetta Wagon 5spd 390k mi
I think you'd need to sleeve the bore with a keyed liner!

I understand that the bosch and delphi injectors will be different and so swapping different injectors in may not be feasible with a microprocessor. What I'm saying is, why not swap out just the pump and leave the bosch injectors in? I don't own one of these cars so I don't know what electronics are hooked up to the pump but I assume that there's a pressure sensor and maybe a solenoid of some sort to adjust the pressure or quantity.

When I look at the HPFP its a really simple device. The TB drives a shaft with a cam on it, the cam pushes a plunger that pressurizes an eternal line. There's a pressure sensor, and some overflow and return valves and that's it. Swapping or mounting the bosch pressure sensor can't be that hard if it comes down to it and there's plenty of those pressure sensors out there in trash cans!

The way I think is that all it comes down to is, how much fuel can the pump pressurize per revolution, what's its max rpm, and what pressure will it go to? As long as it reaches the right pressure that's good. If the max rpm is that of the TDI then you're good, if its much more then you could throw an undersized sprocket on it and overdrive it to get more fuel flow. So then can it pump enough fuel to keep up with the engine?

Bolt it up and modge together whatever electronics you need. I bet I could order a couple hundred of these with whatever necessary mods and sell them to you guys and turn a profit.
 

740GLE

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 19, 2009
Location
NH
TDI
2015 Passat SEL, 2017 Alltrack SE; BB 2010 Sedan Man; 2012 Passat,


If I posted something which implied that blue tech or Ad Blue would eliminate the need for DFP's it was probably just my poor selection of words :( Diesel particulate filtration (I think) is here to stay.

My response was more geared to Niners comments below, sorry I didn't link the quote.

The more I think about it, the more problems I see with those extreme heat cycles and doing burnoffs with DPF's versus going and using blue tec technology to keep things clean. That burnoff cycle is hell on everything plastic underneath that hood, severely shortening the life of the plastic components.
 

Westro

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 12, 2002
Location
Minnesota
TDI
2002,2002,2003
Why would the injectors need to be changed? Simply swap in this Delphi pump and use the same pressure sensor from the Bosch unit. Electrically it would be the same?

What other electrical connections are there to the HPFP?
 
Top