Passat no start

Just Some Guy

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 3, 2002
Location
Erie, PA
Originally posted by brownnugen:
Just Some Guy,
How do you test to see if it is that switch on the alarm control module? If it is that module, is there a way to fix it or is the only option removing and replacing? Can it be bypassed?
-Nick
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yeah you can test it, but it requires pulling the module out. And yes, you can bypass it too.

I'll have to look up the diagram again and give you some info later today.

Before you do that, though, you should run a wire from the positive terminal on the battery to the terminal on the starter solenoid to be sure the starter is working (I'd bet you it is).

All you do is jam your hand down there and disconnect the only single small-gauge wire connection on the starter, then run a new wire from B+ to the terminal on the starter you just diconnected.

It SHOULD crank and start up. If it doesn't, then it'd be your starter.

If it DOES crank and start up, it is your ignition switch, the alarm module, or the wiring between them.

If you couldn't get anything out of it after charging the battery, though, the alarm module is highly suspect. If it were the ignition switch, you should be able to get it to start by playing with it. Of course, playing with it will also sometimes free the alarm module up enough to start the car too.
 

brownnugen

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Joined
Jan 18, 2001
Location
Charleston, SC
TDI
2015 GSW TDI, 2011 JSW TDI & 2018 Atlas 2.0T S
Just Some Guy,
If you could provide info on testing/repairing the alarm control module, that would be great.
-Nick
 

Just Some Guy

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 3, 2002
Location
Erie, PA
Originally posted by brownnugen:
Just Some Guy,
If you could provide info on testing/repairing the alarm control module, that would be great.
-Nick
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Test the starter first the way I already described to eliminate it from the possible problems list.
 

brownnugen

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2001
Location
Charleston, SC
TDI
2015 GSW TDI, 2011 JSW TDI & 2018 Atlas 2.0T S
Car is at the electrical shop right now. They eliminated the starter being the problem by bypassing it. So I guess, it is either the alarm control module or ignition switch.

I'm thinking that if it is the ignition switch, I may end up putting in a starter button. The switch was changed out about 6 months ago and at about $200 each time, it is getting expensive.

If it is the alarm module, is there a way to fix it other than bypassing it?

Just Some Guy, I wanted to email you offline but your address does not show. Can you send me an email at brownnugen@hotmail.com ? Thanks.
-Nick

[ May 13, 2002, 15:33: Message edited by: brownnugen ]
 

Just Some Guy

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 3, 2002
Location
Erie, PA
Originally posted by brownnugen:
Car is at the electrical shop right now. They eliminated the starter being the problem by bypassing it. So I guess, it is either the alarm control module or ignition switch.

-Nick
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">See, told ya so.

I'll email you tonight.
 

Just Some Guy

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 3, 2002
Location
Erie, PA
Well, this is just great.

I went to the trouble of printing the diagram so I could take it home and write you the email but I left it on my workbench or something.

Anyway, I will at least tell you or your electrical shop how to get at the alarm system control module. I will not elaborate too much on things that you should be able to figure out for yourself, or look up in a Bentley. Then first thing in the morning I will get the pin assignments for it. There are only 2 that are relevant to what we're talking about...I really just should have done it before I left work.

ANYWAY:

Pull the entire black plastic cover from under the bottom of the driver's side dash; the cover that is above your toes while you drive.

Pull the the lower dash (padded vinyl) cover. There are screws along the bottom, and at the top it is just clipped in. Give it a yank.

Once you have that piece off, look to the left of where the steering column goes into the dash. There will be a metal dash frame that was once covered by the trim you removed, and some open space above it where you can see the innards of the dash, and then the rest of the upper dash which you did not remove.

At the very left of the metal piece (this is more or less what used to be called the kneebar) where it ends, there is a 10mm nut on a little bolt on it, going through the metal. This little bolt is attached to the alarm system control module, and is what holds the module in the dash.

If you're feeling really froggy, you can try to take it out. Good luck-there is a learning curve involved with working odd-shaped things out from odd-shaped holes, such as the insides of a dashboards.

If you do take it out, you can take the cover off of it and look for broken solder joints on the circuit board. I have been able to see a few before and then solder them back with my gun. But more often than not, the flaw is too minute to see and you either have to bypass the starter-kill portion of the module (as described below), or just get a new module altogether.

Since you seem interested in just testing and ultimately bypassing it, that is what I'll describe.

There are 2 connectors that plug into the module. One has 6 terminals in the plug, and the other has 10 terminals. One of plugs has a wire in it that comes from your ignition switch (the input to the alarm module), and then the other plug has the wire that eventually ends up at the starter solenoid coming out of it (the output to the starter.)

What you will do is grab a test light (DVOM won't work here because you need a little current draw, such as a light bulb to be sure its working) and turn the key to the START position and look for voltage at the wire that comes from the ignition switch. If you get a light at THAT pin, you know that:

Your ignition switch is doing its job, and the wiring from the igntion switch to the module is good.

If you do not get a light at that pin, you must then test the ignition switch. But I'm telling you, I think you'll find the module bad. If not, we'll address that later.

So we are assuming you got a light at the wire coming from the ignition switch.

With the plugs going into the module still in place (you don't need to unplug them unless you plan on removing the module for inspection or replacement), and the key held in the START position, you will then test for voltage at the pin that is on the other plug that goes out to the starter solenoid.

If you DO have light at THAT pin, you know that:

Your ignition switch is good.
Your alarm system control module is good.
The wiring between the module and the starter is NOT good (assuming your electrical shop actually tested the starter correctly, which I have no reason to doubt.)

If you do NOT have light at THAT pin but you did at the first one, you know that:

Your alarm system control module is bad internally.

The repair, as you may have already guessed, is to simply install a jumper wire from the first pin to the second pin. If I was doing it I would actually remove the wires from the connectors they are in and splice the together, but you really don't even have to do that-you do not have the tools necessary to do things like that (but your electrical shop might). I'd recommend some good scotch locks, or whatever other method you can come up with.

When you have it wired up, when you turn the key to start, the alarm module is out of the picture and the voltage from the ignition switch can now reach the starter solenoid, the starter will turn, the car will start, and we'll all live happily ever after.

So there it is.

I'll get you those pins in the morning.
 

Just Some Guy

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 3, 2002
Location
Erie, PA
Okay.

Pin 4 of the 10 pin connector comes from the ignition switch.

Pin 6 of the 6 pin connector goes out to the starter solenoid.

Power at pin 4 of the 10 pin with the key in the start position shows that the ignition switch is good.

Power at pin 6 of the 6 pin connector with the key in the start position shows that the ignition switch is good AND the alarm system control module is good.

But I betcha you won't have power at pin 6.
 

brownnugen

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Joined
Jan 18, 2001
Location
Charleston, SC
TDI
2015 GSW TDI, 2011 JSW TDI & 2018 Atlas 2.0T S
I am thinking that it is the ignition switch now. When it wouldn't start this morning, the guy at the shop wiggled the electrical portion of the ignition switch from the bottom and then the car started right up. This makes me mad that the switch has enough play in it to wiggle around. I've heard that Passats are not known for good ignition switches.

I am going to have them install a push button starter that bypasses this part of the ignition switch. Hopefully that can permanently cure this notoriously badly designed switch.
-Nick
 

Just Some Guy

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 3, 2002
Location
Erie, PA
Originally posted by jettajim:
just some guy, damn!!!

Why in the hell did VW let you go?!!!!!!!!!

Jim
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">They didn't.

They found some money laying around and finally got around to giving me some......
 

Just Some Guy

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 3, 2002
Location
Erie, PA
Originally posted by brownnugen:
I am thinking that it is the ignition switch now. When it wouldn't start this morning, the guy at the shop wiggled the electrical portion of the ignition switch from the bottom and then the car started right up. This makes me mad that the switch has enough play in it to wiggle around. I've heard that Passats are not known for good ignition switches.

I am going to have them install a push button starter that bypasses this part of the ignition switch. Hopefully that can permanently cure this notoriously badly designed switch.
-Nick
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It is easy enough to get a new switch and unplug the one that is in the car, plug in the new switch while its still loose (to actually install it you must dismantle the column), and try it that way, with a screwdriver acting as the lock cylinder.

Using this trick you can try to start it over and over and if it works every time, you can be somewhat certain the switch is to blame.

Don't be suprised if the module is still bad though.
 

jettajim

Veteran Member
Joined
May 31, 2000
Location
near Houston
TDI
'14 Golf 6-spd, '12 Passat gasser:(
Just Some Guy
They didn't.

They found some money laying around and finally got around to giving me some......
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">LOL
 

Just Some Guy

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 3, 2002
Location
Erie, PA
I'm going to be really upset if I don't find out what happened on this car.

It makes me mad when I spend a lot of time and energy informing people of things for free when I could just as easily nail them for $79.50 an hour, and never find out what the outcome was.

I've got more than an hour in this one.

[ May 15, 2002, 19:44: Message edited by: Just Some Guy ]
 

brownnugen

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2001
Location
Charleston, SC
TDI
2015 GSW TDI, 2011 JSW TDI & 2018 Atlas 2.0T S
Sorry about that, didn't mean to leave you hanging


Well, it turned out to be the ignition switch. After showing me that the car would start after wiggling the back of the ignition switch ever so slightly, I opted to try the push button route.

Yesterday afternoon, when it the interior of the car was nice and toasty, I had my wife go out to the car and try to start it with just the key; the car wouldn't start. But with the ignition on and the push button wired into the starter, the car would start right up everytime.

So, in the end, things appear to work. I'm really not sure if the shop bypassed the igntion switch or the alarm control module altogether. What I do know is that the starter won't crank over unless the ignition switch is turned to the start position. Unfortunately, once the car is started, pushing the button would engage the starter if it were accidentally pressed. Luckily, I had it mounted at a place that would be very inconvenient and unlikely to get pressed.

Thanks everyone for the help, especially Just Some Guy, who provided me with so much knowledge (and a clue what was going on). I can't say 100% that this is the best or most permanent solution, but for now, it looks like a possible resolution for the notoriously bad ignition switches in our Passats. Did I ever say how much I loved tdiclub??

-Nick
 
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