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TDI Conversions Discussions on converting non TDIs into TDIS. More general items can be answered better in other sections. This is ideal for issues that don't have an overlap and are very special to swaping engines.

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Old February 15th, 2011, 21:57   #1
markd89
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Default 1Z/AHU into 78 Bus

INTRO:

I'm hoping this will get to be a nice long thread with some good pictures. I have finally decided to do this conversion. My old engine is dead. Emissions here in California tell me if I get a 1997 or earlier engine I will be exempted. TDI is the ideal powerplant for power and economy.

I'm going to have the help of my long-time mechanic to get this done. I'll do some work and get his help too. Although I'll get a great deal on his help, I'll still be paying for it, so it's extra important that I plan this well and make the right design decisions. I want to make this as simple as is possible.

My bus currently has a 2.0l and a 6 rib trans. It has the small engine access hatch typical for Type 4 buses. I plan on a 1Z/AHU (the only TDIs sold in the USA prior to 1998), a re-geared Transaxle and cooling underneath. I want to be able to go up a hill at 75 mph and get close to 30 MPG if I drive nicely. Let's see how close I can get!


GETTING STARTED:
I have a lot more ideas and questions, but to start with:

1. Angle. I know 50* is possible through Kennedy or the Vanagon diesel bellhousing. I read somewhere (but am not sure) that 15* will also work and if I did that I would not need to switch out oilpan and oilpump. Will I be OK on fitment issues at 15*? Any reasons not to do 15*?

2. Fitment of engine against fuel tank. Paulie used an ALH engine and had the the vacuum pump and coolant flange hit the tank. His solution is here http://viewfromabus.blogspot.com/200...nk-solved.html and I'd like to avoid it. On 13 Window Deluxe's bus http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g5...necomplete.jpg, I don't seem to see those protuberances. If I stick with 1Z/AHU are these a non-issue?

3. The hole. My bus already has an access hatch for the Type4 engine. I want to be able to do the install and engine maintenance going forward without removing the engine. Can I do that with the Type4 hatch or do I really need to cut a bigger hole back there.

Thanks in advance!

Mark
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Old February 22nd, 2011, 11:49   #2
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Project progress:

Decided on 15 degree mounting.
Decided on using the stock engine hatch - no additional cutting.

I ordered up the kit from Kennedy including the Stage 1 Pressure plate and stock clutch disc. This is supposed to be good to 225 pound/ft torque.

I'm using the 90hp AHU engine. I may do the mods to take it to 110hp, but even so I should be under 225 pound/ft.

Mark
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Old February 22nd, 2011, 12:05   #3
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I don't know the bus's clutches but I know the TDI engines are easy to get above the 225tq level, get the uprated clutch.
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Old February 23rd, 2011, 10:41   #4
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Quote:
I want to be able to go up a hill at 75 mph
That is going to depend on the hill, the hp/torque and the gearing you end up with. To get the mileage you want i.e. 30 mpg, you will need to gear tall. When you gear tall, you may be too tall for long uphill grinds even on the interstate. It that case, you will need to use 3rd gear and I don't believe the math will let you run 75mph in 3rd. For numbers to crunch. Stock max torque is around 2200 rpm, max hp around 3800rpm. You can upgrade the power, but may affect mileage and reliability. Should be a nice ride even if you don't hit your targets. My vanagon with a 4.14 ring and pinion and a taller .77 4th gear runs about 2900 rpm at 70mph. Good luck and post lots of pictures.
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Old February 23rd, 2011, 18:53   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G60ING View Post
I don't know the bus's clutches but I know the TDI engines are easy to get above the 225tq level, get the uprated clutch.
Thanks for the help. I emailed KEP and changed from Stage 1 to Stage 2 on the pressure plate. The cost is the same, just slightly more left leg workout, which is fine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rsxsr View Post
That is going to depend on the hill, the hp/torque and the gearing you end up with. To get the mileage you want i.e. 30 mpg, you will need to gear tall. When you gear tall, you may be too tall for long uphill grinds even on the interstate. It that case, you will need to use 3rd gear and I don't believe the math will let you run 75mph in 3rd. For numbers to crunch. Stock max torque is around 2200 rpm, max hp around 3800rpm. You can upgrade the power, but may affect mileage and reliability. Should be a nice ride even if you don't hit your targets. My vanagon with a 4.14 ring and pinion and a taller .77 4th gear runs about 2900 rpm at 70mph. Good luck and post lots of pictures.
Thanks for the ideas. I had been thinking about that as the trans is one of the next things on the shopping list to get ready. I do agree that in order to hit minimum RPMs in 4th that there'll likely be big hills that require a down-shift to 3rd. That's probably OK as most of the hills I do are in-town and not on the freeway.

Are you able to climb hills in 4th gear at 2900 rpm?
Is the 4.14 a special differential?

I'll also post up the gear ratios I come up with for your review.

..and I will be posting pics!!

Thanks again,

Mark

Last edited by markd89; February 23rd, 2011 at 18:56.
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Old February 28th, 2011, 07:58   #6
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So news, my parts car is on the way to me and I'll have it in a few days!

More planning:

I probably don't care about using cruise contol. I'd also prefer not to get any CELs. Do I still need to deal with the VSS? If so, what's the easiest way to do that? Can it be de-programmed from the software or do I lose some engine efficiency or performance without it?

Thanks,
Mark
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Old February 28th, 2011, 09:50   #7
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The earlier TDI engine may be different, but I did not have a VSS when I first got my Vanagon running. It would not trip the check engine light and ran fine. There were faults recorded, but I have since learned that not all faults will turn on the CEL, some are just recorded. When I installed the VSS, the engine actually developed an SDS problem it did not have before that I needed to resolve. So you should be fine without the VSS. Label the wire in case you want to add cruise at a later date.
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Old March 1st, 2011, 22:13   #8
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Thanks for the help!
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Old March 3rd, 2011, 22:18   #9
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More news/questions..

Engine mounts:


I found VW Part# 1H0 199 262L inexpensive on eb*y

and I think these look like a good solution. I'd just bolt one on each side between the support bar and the mount I get welded which attaches to the engine.

Transaxle:

I'll be using a 091 with a 4.57 differential. I wish there was a way to get a 3.x differential, but there's not, so I plan to reduce my RPMs by using lower gears for 1-4.

Ffor economy, I can up-shift at about 3000 rpm which puts me at about 2000 rpm in the next higher gear. If I want to go faster or deal with a hill, I'll just shift higher than 2000rpm.

So far, I'm thinking about a 1.14 3rd gear and a 0.70 4th gear. These seem to be the lowest ratios available and are commonly used with Vanagon TDI conversions so figure they should be close enough for my bus. I will be at approximately 2700rpm and 65 mph in 4th gear. If I come to a severe hill, then I can downshift to 3rd and go 4000 rpm and 62 mph.

For 1st, I'm thinking about 2.9 and 2nd 1.7. These are also the lowest I've found. I can run 1st gear up to 18mph at 3000rpm, then shift to 2nd and be at 1800 rpm. If I run 2nd up to 3000rpm, I'll be at 31 mph.

Here's the gearing spreadsheet I used. The yellow cells are economy driving. The orange cells are spirited driving ;-)

My engine should be about 100-110hp tuned. Do you see any issues?

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Old March 4th, 2011, 06:44   #10
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I went with the 1.14:1 ratio 3rd and 0.77:1 4th ratio using the 4.57 ring and pinion. The numbers looked good for the RPM/Speed running at 65 to 70 with the 14 inch OEM wheels. 15 inch wheels will drop the RPMs about 150.

As I recall, using GPS, ScanGauge, and my 2000 Jetta TDI instrumentation, driving the Jetta in 4th gear is similar to the gear ratio for the Vanagon tranny set-up I've put together. Seems it was about 2850 rpms at 65 mph......don't hold me to those numbers. But, anyway, the engine seemed happy at that RPM in the Jetta. Of course the Vanagon will be a little heavier and far less aerodynamic.

So, when I get it on the road (hopefully by summer), tire adjustment may be one thing I do.

I don't think you will need to modify the engine access to do maintenance. Once you get 'er going......... your talking air filter 20k miles, fuel filter 20k miles, oil filter 10k miles and that's about it!

A couple years ago, I saw a '76 Bay with a Subie engine conversion. The guy put the Radiator in the rear with hydraulics to raise and close the back access door......... Door opened when Rad fan kicked on.......pretty neat.
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Last edited by AndyBees; March 4th, 2011 at 06:47. Reason: Add info
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Old March 4th, 2011, 07:04   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markd89 View Post
I want to be able to go up a hill at 75 mph and get close to 30 MPG if I drive nicely. Let's see how close I can get!

The stock EFI 2.0L should be able to do that, except on some really steep hills or with a lot of loads. Both my '79 and my '82 can. It won't ever get near 30 MPG though.

Keep in mind the T2 really was never intended to go that fast (the factory maximum cruising speed for the Type-4 powered T2 was 70, and that is really only safe with little to no cross winds). The T3 is MUCH more stable at speed, thanks to its nearly 50/50 front/rear weight bias, and despite being larger they are more aerodynamic. But even then, 75 or so is the very upper safe limit I would ever recommend driving one, and again not on a windy day.

Both the T2 and T3 were sold with a base 50hp 1.6L air-cooled engine in other markets, even when we got the Type 4 engines as standard, obviously the basic design did not have super high-speed in mind.

I've seen radiators mounted midship on the T2, with several cooling fans, that seemed to work OK. The Jeep Cherokee 4.0L radiator, two mounted next to one another longways, will fit between the unibody rails after you remove the heater duct (which is not needed anymore anyways).

The water-cooled T3 rear heater box, which is a nice standalone unit complete with blower, valve, core, etc. can be made to mount under the T2's rearmost seat, as well as up under the passenger side of the dashboard. One neat trick I saw for heat was a guy mounted the heater box under the front, just behind the front beam, and ducted it into the existing heater duct going forward to the dash. Then he simply shortened the original cable that went all the way back to the heater boxes on the air cooled engine to go to the heater valve on the heater box. That way, all the heating, defrost, and ventilation controls were just the same as the stock T2 was. Pretty slick.

In the T2, you have the advantage of having the upper bellhouse mounts, something the T3 does not have, which is nice as the engine cannot move around as much, but it does seem to transmit a little more NVH into the interior with the diesels.
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Old March 4th, 2011, 08:32   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oilhammer View Post
(the factory maximum cruising speed for the Type-4 powered T2 was 70, and that is really only safe with little to no cross winds). The T3 is MUCH more stable at speed, thanks to its nearly 50/50 front/rear weight bias, and despite being larger they are more aerodynamic. But even then, 75 or so is the very upper safe limit I would ever recommend driving one, and again not on a windy day.
I agree. I plan to keep it about 70mph anyway as it does tend to get hairy going faster than that. I just want to build the capability to go faster so I could go faster occasionally and so I'm not winding it out too much in normal driving.

Being in L.A., for the time being,there is not much opportunity to go faster unless it's 4am ;-)

Quote:
Originally Posted by oilhammer View Post
I've seen radiators mounted midship on the T2, with several cooling fans, that seemed to work OK. The Jeep Cherokee 4.0L radiator, two mounted next to one another longways, will fit between the unibody rails after you remove the heater duct (which is not needed anymore anyways).
Thanks, that's useful too. I need to think about whether I need ducting to create a high pressure area above the radiator or whether I'll have sufficient cooling without it.

The idea being that when not moving, the fans provide enough cooling. When moving at highway speed we want to create air moving through the radiator. The duct creates a higher pressure area above the radiator and forces air down through it.

Here's a pic of what someone else made:




Quote:
Originally Posted by oilhammer View Post
In the T2, you have the advantage of having the upper bellhouse mounts, something the T3 does not have, which is nice as the engine cannot move around as much, but it does seem to transmit a little more NVH into the interior with the diesels.
I'm glad you brought that up. My current plan is to not use the bellhouse mounts. I've been talking to "13 Window Deluxe" who built this bus. He said there would be too much vibration transmitted into the bus using the bellhousing mounts. He said that using two nice hydraulic mounts on a custom crossbar and the stock front mount I would be good. It does make me a little nervous that there's not more support in front and the T2 has a smaller front trans mount than the Vanagon, but he says it worked well for him. What do you think?

Thanks,
Mark
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Old March 4th, 2011, 08:57   #13
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It will probably be fine, if the two rear mounts are spaced out a bit. The T3 got away with what seemed like minimal mounting largely because the boxer engines have very little NVH as opposed to an inline 4 cylinder (this is why boxers can run just fine with NO balancers, and many inline 4s have to be equipped with dual balance shafts). A diesel inline 4 will obviously work the mounts even more.

Interesting someone else decided to ditch the upper bellhouse bolts on a T2 conversion, as I too was wondering about that. Thanks for the link!

Keep in mind, though, he used a standard T3 diesel bellhouse, that lays the engine down at a 40 degree angle. I would bet that Bus is not too terribly smooth and quiet.
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Last edited by oilhammer; March 4th, 2011 at 09:00.
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Old March 6th, 2011, 20:52   #14
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Oilhammer, thanks for your comments :-)

Next up:

Cooling:

I looked for a radiator which can go lengthwise under the bus and have the in and out connections at the rear. Most radiators have the in and out connections diagonal from each other.

I found these two radiators which look interesting:
http://www.kmjent.com/cart/home.php?cat=5

They claim that these will cool 500 hp. I know I'll lose efficiency because the radiator is not sitting at the front. I also know that the TDI creates less waste-heat than a comparable gasser. I'm hypothesizing these radiators should be enough.

My plan is to lay the radiator at a slight angle up to the rear so that air bubbles will rise through the hoses. It will have a temperature controlled 12" fan on top blowing down. I'll run 90 degree elbows to get the water moving towards the back of the bus rather than straight up.

The radiator will be boxed in at the sides and at the top to make a scoop effect. The total height will be about 8" which should be no lower than some of the suspension parts. I plan to run a mesh in front to keep the large detritus from getting blown in there.

I am clearly not an artist, but this should give an idea.. What do you think?

[/img]
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Old March 10th, 2011, 07:05   #15
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I *think* I have figured out how the two types of mounts work. Please comment and let me know what I'm missing!

Mount#1 - aka Rabbitboy style is shown below. This mount is squished between the metal mounts attached to the engine and the engine support bar. It is bolted to the engine mounting using a single large bolt on top (A). It is bolted to the engine support bar with two bolts at the bottom (B).

As the engine moves, the mount will be squished further or pulled apart.



Mount#2 - aka 13 window deluxe style is shown below. This mount I found harder to understand. I think that's because I can't see how it connects to the engine support bar.

I believe the center bolt runs through the rubber mount, and then bolts on the bottom to a plate welded to the engine support bar. Did I get it right?

This mount seems like it works by being squished and stretched?



Thanks,
Mark
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