NHTSA Update on CR HPFP failure investigation - Page 143

manual_tranny · November 19th, 2011, 18:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tarbe

Good grief! You can't possibly believe this....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tarbe

You too??

You guys just need to sell your cars.

Wait... when did HPFP failure become a conspiracy?

I met a guy who works for Bosch recently. I mentioned what was happening and he said "we don't like to talk about..." those words drifted off and he left to get to a meeting.

Trooper81 · November 19th, 2011, 20:58

Everyone is way too stressed out over this, first of all the Euro design of the Fuel pump is nearly identical. There are obviously a few failures that happen, from contaminated fuel to maybe a bad pump. But with the take rate of the TDI at 80% in alot of places in Europe and this CR engine and pump in hundreds of markets, the design of the pump in itself with proper fuel is NOT faulty. If it were it would be failing at massive rates all over the world and this is NOT the case.

I can point you to someone in the USA who already has nearly 200,000 miles on his 09 CR with NOT one problem with the HPFP. This is obviously a fuel quality issue. Vw and bosch have repeatedly stated that contaminated fuel will cause premature wear/catastrophic failure. And I'm sure that is the case in the "MAJORITY" of cases.

Misfueling is a tiny % of the over all failures.

Watch where you fill up, use only high quality diesel at places with high turnover and CHILL OUT. I live in canada and not too far from here a small gas station pumped gasoline into their diesel pumps imagine what happened next? Chevy, BMW, VW, Mercedes, and ford dealerships were all scratching their heads as to why all these diesels were comming in at the same time.

Find a station you trust, fill up, hey stick a finger in it and smell it every now and then just relax.

I think if anyone should be getting chewed out and taken to court over this it should be the fuel suppliers not the manufacturers. If the suppliers can't provide the quality "EXPENSIVE" fuel that we pay for they should be held accountable. Everyone is sniffing up the wrong tree here and it's so obvious it's rediculous.

Vw is covering MOST HPFP failures in the US even WAY WAY out of warrenty. Trust me on this, and ya Chill out and enjoy the ride.

bhtooefr · November 20th, 2011, 03:14

Except, in the US, there are states where it's literally impossible to get high quality diesel without exceeding the B5 limit, or getting drums of fuel shipped to you.

Whole states.

The design of the pump is incorrect for the United States, because the pump requires fuel that is far higher quality than the minimum standards for the US. It's a fine design for Canada, because Canada's fuel standards, at least in the lubricity category (the one that affects the pump) are harmonized with Europe's.

I also feel that the fuel filtration system is insufficient, due to the amount of allowed water and sediment in diesel fuel in the US, and how little enforcement there is of even that.

manual_tranny · November 20th, 2011, 08:06

Yeah, blame the fuel suppliers all you want but Bosch and VW both knew the quality of our American fuel didn't meet the quality of fuel required for their pumps, and they ignored the fact that there would be problems.

Niner · November 20th, 2011, 08:26

It's obvious, if you look at NHTSA reports, questions, and time lines that VW contacted and worked with Delphi for design of that Delphi DFP6 HPFP for the 1.3 L TDI 2010 Polo in European Markets, as well as how Delphi markets the pump as being fail proof, compared to other brands.

http://delphi.com/news/pressReleases...010_05_11_001/

"The design safely prevents the shoe on the DFP6 pump from lateral rotation which eliminates the risk of fatal pump damage and allows for a mass of just 2.4kg.

Obviously, VW had to be be working with Delphi at least a year or two in advance to come up with this design to market with a May 2010 date, which may put us at around May or June of 2008. VW knew, they had to know, as did Delphi, about defective designs in existence, they patented it, the square shoe follower. There would otherwise have been no reason to improve on the existing Bosch design. Bosch certainly can't patent a round bore hole design.

Trooper81 · November 20th, 2011, 13:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by manual_tranny

Yeah, blame the fuel suppliers all you want but Bosch and VW both knew the quality of our American fuel didn't meet the quality of fuel required for their pumps, and they ignored the fact that there would be problems.

Actualy the "specification" for the Quality of US fuel does barely meet the qualification for lubricity of the pump, with slightly reduced longivity. However the problem is the "actual" quality of US fuel is varying. From barely meeting spec to severly below spec, and as a result it is having an effect on the pumps. If all the fuel was at the minimum specification required with zero contamination we would probably see next to no fuel system failures.

Again, Vw covering the pumps is really a goodwill act in my eyes as the fuel suppliers should really be held accountable for not providing the quality and specific grade of fuel that is required of them by federal mandate.

bhtooefr · November 20th, 2011, 13:10

No, the specification does not meet the pump's spec.

Pump requires 460 um maximum wear scar fuel, US spec is 520 um with 560 allowed, and there is plenty of fuel that exceeds even that in the US due to weak laws.

Trooper81 · November 20th, 2011, 15:22

It seems you are correct. Those numbers would be definitely in the insufficient lubricity catagory with significant reduced pump life.

manual_tranny · November 20th, 2011, 15:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trooper81

It seems you are correct. Those numbers would be definitely in the insufficient lubricity catagory with significant reduced pump life.

Believe me, I wish I were wrong about this.

Tarbe · November 20th, 2011, 17:23

I have fueled in 20 states over 110,000 miles.

If the pump was so bad that we should expect a failure every 36k - 60k miles....well, let's just say I am way past 3 sigma beyond the average.

GTIDan · November 20th, 2011, 17:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhtooefr

No, the specification does not meet the pump's spec.

Pump requires 460 um maximum wear scar fuel, US spec is 520 um with 560 allowed, and there is plenty of fuel that exceeds even that in the US due to weak laws.

Who is your source for such information? Always someone who claims this and that but no source. Since no one I've seen on these forums has ever tested any diesel fuel for lubricity how do we know what the truth is..

All I can add is that I was told by someone way up the chain with 76 here in California that they guarantee their diesel to spec out at 480 or less. Insofar as they are also among the few companies who quality for 'top tier' recognition is good enough for me.

manual_tranny · November 20th, 2011, 18:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by GTIDan

All I can add is that I was told by someone way up the chain with 76 here in California that they guarantee their diesel to spec out at 480 or less. Insofar as they are also among the few companies who quality for 'top tier' recognition is good enough for me.

So what? You can find quality fuel yourself, so there isn't a problem? What if you wanted to drive to another state? Would you call every gas station and ask to speak with some "higher up" management guy who's job is to caress your ego by assuring you that the fuel they sell is infallible?

I get what you're saying... but there are a minimum of three major flaws in the original design of this fuel system and pump. The most critical of these flaws is a total intolerance to a higher wear scar level.

You posted in another thread that these pumps are going to last at least 500K miles because they were supposed to last 750K miles on European fuel. Do you really believe that?

GTIDan · November 20th, 2011, 18:59

[QUOTE=manual_tranny;3610976]So what? You can find quality fuel yourself, so there isn't a problem? What if you wanted to drive to another state? Would you call every gas station and ask to speak with some "higher up" management guy who's job is to caress your ego by assuring you that the fuel they sell is infallible?

I get what you're saying... but there are a minimum of three major flaws in the original design of this fuel system and pump. The most critical of these flaws is a total intolerance to a higher wear scar level.

You posted in another thread that these pumps are going to last at least 500K miles because they were supposed to last 750K miles on European fuel. Do you really believe that?[/QUOTE]

Does it really matter what I believe? Nope, didn't thing so.

Season's greeting to all

pogo · November 20th, 2011, 19:26

If lubricity is truly the root cause of these failures, it should be possible to prevent them: (Diesel fuel additive study results.) Not so if its an inherently bad pump design. Do we have a record yet of any failures on pumps that used 2% soy bio-diesel?

Trooper81 · November 20th, 2011, 20:27

The problem with biodiesel is that often poor quality bio can contain water which also will add to the wear. I'd like to see a failure with someone using a good quality additive such as Optilube XPD and fuel that has had zero conatamination. At that point i will believe that the design of the pump is bad. Until then the design is fine it's the quality of the fuel that is bad.