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Old November 20th, 2011, 13:03   #2131
Trooper81
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Originally Posted by manual_tranny View Post
Yeah, blame the fuel suppliers all you want but Bosch and VW both knew the quality of our American fuel didn't meet the quality of fuel required for their pumps, and they ignored the fact that there would be problems.

Actualy the "specification" for the Quality of US fuel does barely meet the qualification for lubricity of the pump, with slightly reduced longivity. However the problem is the "actual" quality of US fuel is varying. From barely meeting spec to severly below spec, and as a result it is having an effect on the pumps. If all the fuel was at the minimum specification required with zero contamination we would probably see next to no fuel system failures.

Again, Vw covering the pumps is really a goodwill act in my eyes as the fuel suppliers should really be held accountable for not providing the quality and specific grade of fuel that is required of them by federal mandate.
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Old November 20th, 2011, 13:10   #2132
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No, the specification does not meet the pump's spec.

Pump requires 460 um maximum wear scar fuel, US spec is 520 um with 560 allowed, and there is plenty of fuel that exceeds even that in the US due to weak laws.
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Old November 20th, 2011, 15:22   #2133
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It seems you are correct. Those numbers would be definitely in the insufficient lubricity catagory with significant reduced pump life.



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Old November 20th, 2011, 15:50   #2134
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It seems you are correct. Those numbers would be definitely in the insufficient lubricity catagory with significant reduced pump life.
Believe me, I wish I were wrong about this.
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Old November 20th, 2011, 17:23   #2135
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I have fueled in 20 states over 110,000 miles.

If the pump was so bad that we should expect a failure every 36k - 60k miles....well, let's just say I am way past 3 sigma beyond the average.
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Old November 20th, 2011, 17:36   #2136
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Originally Posted by bhtooefr View Post
No, the specification does not meet the pump's spec.

Pump requires 460 um maximum wear scar fuel, US spec is 520 um with 560 allowed, and there is plenty of fuel that exceeds even that in the US due to weak laws.
Who is your source for such information? Always someone who claims this and that but no source. Since no one I've seen on these forums has ever tested any diesel fuel for lubricity how do we know what the truth is..

All I can add is that I was told by someone way up the chain with 76 here in California that they guarantee their diesel to spec out at 480 or less. Insofar as they are also among the few companies who quality for 'top tier' recognition is good enough for me.
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Old November 20th, 2011, 18:48   #2137
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All I can add is that I was told by someone way up the chain with 76 here in California that they guarantee their diesel to spec out at 480 or less. Insofar as they are also among the few companies who quality for 'top tier' recognition is good enough for me.
So what? You can find quality fuel yourself, so there isn't a problem? What if you wanted to drive to another state? Would you call every gas station and ask to speak with some "higher up" management guy who's job is to caress your ego by assuring you that the fuel they sell is infallible?

I get what you're saying... but there are a minimum of three major flaws in the original design of this fuel system and pump. The most critical of these flaws is a total intolerance to a higher wear scar level.

You posted in another thread that these pumps are going to last at least 500K miles because they were supposed to last 750K miles on European fuel. Do you really believe that?
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Old November 20th, 2011, 18:59   #2138
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[QUOTE=manual_tranny;3610976]So what? You can find quality fuel yourself, so there isn't a problem? What if you wanted to drive to another state? Would you call every gas station and ask to speak with some "higher up" management guy who's job is to caress your ego by assuring you that the fuel they sell is infallible?

I get what you're saying... but there are a minimum of three major flaws in the original design of this fuel system and pump. The most critical of these flaws is a total intolerance to a higher wear scar level.

You posted in another thread that these pumps are going to last at least 500K miles because they were supposed to last 750K miles on European fuel. Do you really believe that?[/QUOTE]

Does it really matter what I believe? Nope, didn't thing so.

Season's greeting to all
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Old November 20th, 2011, 19:26   #2139
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If lubricity is truly the root cause of these failures, it should be possible to prevent them: (Diesel fuel additive study results.) Not so if its an inherently bad pump design. Do we have a record yet of any failures on pumps that used 2% soy bio-diesel?
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Old November 20th, 2011, 20:27   #2140
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The problem with biodiesel is that often poor quality bio can contain water which also will add to the wear. I'd like to see a failure with someone using a good quality additive such as Optilube XPD and fuel that has had zero conatamination. At that point i will believe that the design of the pump is bad. Until then the design is fine it's the quality of the fuel that is bad.
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Old November 20th, 2011, 20:31   #2141
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If lubricity is truly the root cause of these failures, it should be possible to prevent them: (Diesel fuel additive study results.) Not so if its an inherently bad pump design. Do we have a record yet of any failures on pumps that used 2% soy bio-diesel?
I don't believe it's as black and white as that.

So, what's the wear scar rating of B2 contaminated with say 1% RUG? VW says it's poor quality diesel fuel causing the failures. VW's poorly designed pump apparently can't handle the poor quality retail fuel being sold across the USA. So, is the problem the pump or the fuel or both???

In a few more weeks, we should have VW's response to NHTSA's last IR. We should know a lot more about VW's assertion that poor quality fuel is the issue and not their pump design.
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Old November 22nd, 2011, 18:12   #2142
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There is a thing called "fitness for use".

If the pump is ostensibly designed to use USA fuel without further additives, then its fitness for use must be considered when using this fuel.

Because my pump has lasted 110k on B2, we cannot say the pump is fit for use. It may have blown up at 40k on pump dino diesel.

I think I can say my pump is fit for use with B2. If it lasts another 100k I will be able to say it for sure! I don't plan to find out how long it will last on straight dino!
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Old November 22nd, 2011, 18:44   #2143
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While I'm among those in the 'no additive' camp I would gladly use B2 if it were offered by Chevron, 76 or say Shell. Not going to risk using some independent grease pit shop to buy it.
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Old November 22nd, 2011, 18:56   #2144
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Go to Downs in Corona and fill some five gallon containers and add one liter per tank.

Downs is not junk, but is quality biodiesel.



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Old November 23rd, 2011, 04:08   #2145
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Go to Downs in Corona and fill some five gallon containers and add one liter per tank.

Downs is not junk, but is quality biodiesel.



D
What is the shelf life (storage life) of the Corona biodiesel?

Sounds like some folks would really have some old biodiesel if they bought that much for an individual car.

I still think that there are multiple approaches needed to handle the HPFP problems. One or two approachs are not enough. When many cars get to 100,000 miles we will have some idea of the severity of the problem. I really think we will really know when many cars get to 300,000 miles, and I do not think expecting 300,000 miles from well designed diesels is beyond reason. I have an Isuzu diesel at 280,000 miles I drive now. My neglect and lack of replacement parts causes the problems I experience with it, and not design flaws.

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