NHTSA Update on CR HPFP failure investigation - Page 132

TDIMeister · October 17th, 2011, 09:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by DEZLBOY

OCCUPY VoA ! (OVoA) [Pronounced OVA]

Volkswagen Group Of America, Inc,
2200 Ferdinand Porsche Drive
Herndon, VA 20171-5884

Be There, Or Be Square!

PLACE http://tinyurl.com/3otwpbr

WHEN: December 11th (?). Coincides with Ferdinand Alexander Porsche birthdate. He was born 11 December 1935

Wow, he was quite the child prodigy to have been commissioned to develop the Beetle just prior to WWII!! Oh wait, wrong Ferdinand Porsche. You are probably referring to the patriarch Ferdinand Porsche (sorry, you missed his birthday) or Ferdinand Piëch (you have a number of months ahead of his b'day to plan a protest

). Better to go after VWoA CEO Johnathan Browning (June 21st), VW Group president Martin Winterkorn (May 24th) or VW Group Executive Director of Powertrain Engineering Wolfgang Hatz (d.o.b. ?)

Trooper81 · October 17th, 2011, 09:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhtooefr

The relevancy of the BMW HPFP failures to the VW HPFP failures is roughly equivalent to, oh, the relevancy of the price of tea in China to the VW HPFP - the BMW HPFP failures are all (or almost all) on gassers, which use a completely different fuel as far as the characteristics for an HPFP (requiring a completely different design), at far lower pressure, and the problem there is ethanol-related.

AFAIK, BMW isn't having problems with their diesel HPFPs, which are the CP3.3, just like Mercedes.

No you are WRONG in 2005 BMW had a recall on their BOSCH HPFP CR DIESEL engines, it has full relavency, you don't know about this because it happened in Germany as i mentioned. It also stopped the Production on the chrysler lines because of their same diesel HPFP.

truman · October 17th, 2011, 09:57

It would seem to me that it is very relevant how other pump designs are performing in the field and how the manufacturer has responded to failures. It provides some sort of baseline to evaluate the problems with VW diesel pumps. If VW is claiming that it is only a fuel problem and not a design problem, comparisons may validate or nullify that position.

Trooper81 · October 17th, 2011, 10:03

I've got a few links for you to peruse.

http://www.rp-online.de/auto/news/BM...aid_76867.html

http://www.rp-online.de/wirtschaft/n...aid_76776.html

this may be the reason why they're getting information from Mercedes as it may refer back to this incident.

wreck111 · October 17th, 2011, 10:12

I had a question regarding the Bosch CP 4.1 diesel pump as i read on a VW forum there had been some failures with the cam and follower .
The pump is lubricated by the fuel so it occured to me that fuel quality could effect the reliability of the pump .
Got this reply from Bosch technical dept .
Incidentally i didn't ask a leading question with regard to the expensive diesel types ..
Subject: RE: CP 4.1 common rail diesel pump
Fuel additives are definitely important! It is not easy to recommend particular fuel brands though, but the special fuels (eg excellium) that the major fuel brands sell at a slightly higher price than standard diesel, should be beneficial even if only used periodically.

CedarPark68 · October 17th, 2011, 10:30

When I worked at the State level for an Engineering agency, they would get pissed with requests like these ..... this request is very complicated, very long and requires a huge amount of man hours.

The fines per day are real and the last thing M would want is to make the papers on this as they are not the company in focus.

Hats off to NHTSA.

Sorry that Mr. Benz has to be brought into, but all the better.

M. will essentially tell everyone that there is NO ISSUE with the way THEY DO THINGS.... which will include them dispelling the BS that is poor US Fuel, OR at least noting how they overcame US Fuel issues.

NHTSA will then be able to squarely come back to VW and say, US Fuel is not an issue, gas should not cost 8k to recover from, fix the pumps.

bhtooefr · October 17th, 2011, 10:32

Interesting, although it looks like the affected pump was the CP3.3, which isn't what's failing on US fuel.

kjclow · October 17th, 2011, 10:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by NickBeek

Does the MB use Bosch as well? Maybe VW is going to throw Bosch under the bus. Just a thought.....

Would that be a Micro-mini bus

? Since GM and Ford are seeing hpfp pump failures with their Bosch pumps, I wonder if they will also get this request.

Trooper81 · October 17th, 2011, 11:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by kjclow

Would that be a Micro-mini bus

? Since GM and Ford are seeing hpfp pump failures with their Bosch pumps, I wonder if they will also get this request.

those failures are so small in comparison and even from what i've seen probably half are water/fuel contamination.

interestingly they already have a tsb at ford with instructions on various steps to diagnose hpfp failure

I wish we would know more about what was causing the failures of the BMW CR hpfp pumps in 2005. To me it sounds like a manufacturing or materials defect. The only details we have is that the cp3.3 had dramatically shortened lifespans. The answers to this would probably answer all of our questions in regards to the CP4.1 pump. Although it's not the same pump, there is a good chance that similar problems are causing the shortened lifespans.

Niner · October 17th, 2011, 11:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by NickBeek

Does the MB use Bosch as well? Maybe VW is going to throw Bosch under the bus. Just a thought.....

CP3 pump, I think, in the MB, lubed by crank oil or something, on the cam lobes surface, not D2. Maybe Drivbiwire can comment.

That number after CP is the generation of Common Rail pump in the Bosch lineup. Ours are CP4

Trooper81 · October 17th, 2011, 12:31

the CP3 was problematic even while being lubed by oil. Bosch fixed the problem and since then they've been problem free. That's basically what needs to happen now with the CP4.1 I don't believe the CP4.2 has shown to be problematic enough to warrant a fix yet, but if whatever is causing the .1's to fail is also being applied to the .2's Then they might as well Recall them both.

kjclow · October 17th, 2011, 13:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trooper81

those failures are so small in comparison and even from what i've seen probably half are water/fuel contamination.

interestingly they already have a tsb at ford with instructions on various steps to diagnose hpfp failure

I wish we would know more about what was causing the failures of the BMW CR hpfp pumps in 2005. To me it sounds like a manufacturing or materials defect. The only details we have is that the cp3.3 had dramatically shortened lifespans. The answers to this would probably answer all of our questions in regards to the CP4.1 pump. Although it's not the same pump, there is a good chance that similar problems are causing the shortened lifespans.

Is there any place like NHTSA in Gremany or Europe that would have details that caused the recall? Although even if we have that information, it would probably not tell us how the BMW pump was redesigned.

timwagon · October 17th, 2011, 14:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trooper81

I've got a few links for you to peruse.

http://www.rp-online.de/auto/news/BM...aid_76867.html

http://www.rp-online.de/wirtschaft/n...aid_76776.html

this may be the reason why they're getting information from Mercedes as it may refer back to this incident.

Yes, it may.

If I could read German I'd probably be able to provide a more thoughtful answer.

Any more foreign language links you'd like to share?

bhtooefr · October 17th, 2011, 14:34

With the help of Google Translate, I'm getting the following out of those articles (guessing based on some context, when there's mistranslations):

First article: BMW stopped production (about 3600 cars were delayed) and recalled cars due to HPFP lifespan being shortened, and it affected DaimlerChrysler and Audi as well, although Audi didn't stop production.

Second article: DaimlerChrysler stopped production and replaced that production with gassers, Bosch claims that a vendor's coating failed, C, E, and S class are affected. Audi only had problems with certain batches. VW's only affected vehicle was the Phaeton. Opel's 6-cylinder engines aren't affected due to using a Japanese pump, but their 4-cylinder engines use a smaller version of the affected pump (I'm assuming Bosch CP3.2 vs. 3.3, here). Opel did testing, though, and hasn't found any problems.

manual_tranny · October 17th, 2011, 14:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by timwagon

Yes, it may.

If I could read German I'd probably be able to provide a more thoughtful answer.

Any more foreign language links you'd like to share?

Tooef beat me to it. Hold on a sec and I'll post links to the full translated articles.

Article 1 translated

Article 2 Translated