NHTSA Update on CR HPFP failure investigation

[jbright]

DPM, a member from N. Ireland, wrote this on a thread in the A-5 forum, last week or so http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread...323508&page=3:

That's the way it is with CR systems of all brands, and the way it's been for the past ten years and more. We went through the same problems "last millennium" with the CP1 pumps here in Europe. The slightest sniff of adulterated fuel killed pumps, worn in-tank pumps killed pumps; dead pumps took out injectors, tanks full of metal swarf needed replaced etc etc.
Oddly tho, it isn't such a problem any more...

So it seems that Bosch should already know about these matters. (I wonder if the above havoc caused Europe to raise it's diesel fuel standards.)

[Niner]

Originally Posted by aja8888

If I was a test engineer at Bosch, I would currently be dumping different substances (gasoline, additives, water, etc) into D2 to do bench test runs on the HPFP for root cause failure analysis....... Hey, that should have been done prior to 2009!.

And then you should add bits of shaving and metal to the fuel too, from a failed HPFP and bench test it to see what happens, with a timer on it. See how long it takes, Mean Time Between Failure.

[kjclow]

Originally Posted by aja8888

If I was a test engineer at Bosch, I would currently be dumping different substances (gasoline, additives, water, etc) into D2 to do bench test runs on the HPFP for root cause failure analysis....... Hey, that should have been done prior to 2009!.

Wasn't that part of the report posted somewhere back in the beginning? That's how we have "determined" that the D2 fuel in the states does not have a high enough lubricity rating (or scar rating). IIRC, the report was done by Bosch.

[eddif]

Originally Posted by oxford_guy

VW sanctions biodiesel up to B5, and all you need is 1-2% to get adequate lubricity.

You can add a quart of B100 to one tank of USLD if you don't have B1-B5 in your area.

Originally Posted by Harvieux

My post was not meant in any way, shape, or form to lash you. I was mainly referring to such claims as 32 oz. of gas claim along with fact that no one, TTBOMK, other than "possibly" VW or Bosch knows exactly why these pumps are failing. Later!

Originally Posted by securityguy

http://www.opti-lube.com/XPD.htm

I may just think too highly of myself. Sure always is a possibility.

Adequate lubricity? Adequate if no contaminates (gasoline, water) hits the pump. No reasonable margin of protection).

If 1 1/2 ounces of gasoline per gallon of diesel fuel was the limit in the 60s (?) with no turbo. That probably has not changed and even today 1 oz of gasoline per gallon is probably way too much. I might as well offer a thought about an amount. I really do / will not feel bad about being wrong. 16 oz of gasoline in my 13 gallon Isuzu diesel tank would be about the same ratio. The amount of gasoline was based on partial history.

If a small amount of lubricant helps the situation, why would not a small amount of drier hurt the situation. Makes sense to a feeble minded fellow from Mississippi.

VW has the engineers and computers to know. Would it be logical to think they do know? Yes??? Would it be logical to think thay are going to try and stay just above warranty mileages? I seriously doubt they will make a 500,000 mile pump.

Since we have not been told the answer, it is logical to me to try and arrive at the problems. I do not think everyone that belongs to tdiclub should know what is wrong, but there are several people way smarter than me that I listen to (both education and / or practical experience wise).

Industry is loading parts to the very limit of their capacity. VW appears to need a better coating on the HPFP roller holder. I might as well be proved wrong here as well. I do not think we should all hide in fear of being wrong. Wild eyed guessing is dangerous--I agree. But being afraid to think is just as dangerous.

As club members, all we can probably do is filtering and additives. I suggest we have at trying to do as much as possible. We should also try and encourage each other to arrive at a plan before warranty is gone for the now new CRs.

Shadetree LOL (laughing to keep from crying)

eddif

[Harvieux]

I also recall a post way back which specified that Bosch gave VWAG a choice of pumps to go into the final production and Bosch recommended a specific pump and VW's bean counters chose the cheap route. I don't know how credible this is but, it sure stuck in my head as a possibility knowing VW as we do, eh? Later!

[El Dobro]

Originally Posted by Harvieux

I also recall a post way back which specified that Bosch gave VWAG a choice of pumps to go into the final production and Bosch recommended a specific pump and VW's bean counters chose the cheap route. I don't know how credible this is but, it sure stuck in my head as a possibility knowing VW as we do, eh? Later!

It would be nice to see a copy of an internal memo like that.

[Harvieux]

Originally Posted by El Dobro

It would be nice to see a copy of an internal memo like that.

Tell me about it! As intrusive as our govt. is to our citizens at this point, it would sure be nice if the NHTSA had such intrusive power to go into VW's internal dbase and weed out such possibilities. I would bet there are some smokin guns in them there archives, eh? Later!

[oxford_guy]

Part of keeping us safe is keeping unpleasant information out of our hands.

Drive more, worry less!

[eddif]

Originally Posted by oxford_guy

Part of keeping us safe is keeping unpleasant information out of our hands.

Drive more, worry less!

Keeping us safe. Hmm

Emergency training classes:
Your car has just gone in to limp mode - these are the 5 things to do .......

Your car has just lost all power - these are the 6 things to do......

I would think unpleasant as the preperation for disaster is; there is no way to Drive more and worry less. When you are driving a vehicle that tends to have major failures you need to be informed and trained for disaster.

The other option is that the cars are made more reliable so we do not have to discuss panic situations.

LOL
eddif

[Harvieux]

Originally Posted by oxford_guy

Part of keeping us safe is keeping unpleasant information out of our hands.

Drive more, worry less!

Yup, that's what Arthur Neville "Chamberlain" promoted after his 1938 meeting with Adolf ******. Later!

[tdisky]

"We will have robust high pressure fuel pumps in our time."

[GTIDan]

Originally Posted by oxford_guy

VW sanctions biodiesel up to B5, and all you need is 1-2% to get adequate lubricity.

You can add a quart of B100 to one tank of USLD if you don't have B1-B5 in your area.

Before you jump on the biofuel bandwagen you might want to read this post taken from another TDI forum (Myturbodiesel.com). I knew there must be a reason VW does not 'overly' recommend biodiesel............here it it is:

Using biodiesel up to B100 with a 2009 or newer VW Jetta TDI, Golf TDI, or Audi A3 TDI

The newer common rail TDI engines (CRD) in VW Jetta TDI or other models with DPF will run as well on biodiesel as older TDI engines ran fine on biodiesel. However, using biodiesel has three main problems. During the post injection combustion, it can collect in the cylinder instead of vaporizing and raising the EGT to heat up the DPF, preventing normal active DPF regenerations. By not vaporizing, biodiesel works its way into the engine oil much more than diesel. Because biodiesel has a higher distillation and boiling point, once it's in the oil, it accumulates and dilutes the engine oil.
There's always greater engine oil dilution during a post combustion injection cycle but regular diesel can evaporate more easily than biodiesel out of the engine oil. Once it evaporates, it's recycled into the air intake by the crankcase ventilation system and consumed by the engine. Biodiesel accumulates because it doesn't evaporate as easily. At a 2008 biodiesel conference, a VW representative said the engine could tolerate up to 50% fuel mix in the oil but no more. (source) This level could be exceeded after 10,000 miles with just B5. B10 would definitely exceed this level.
Some possible solutions are to delete the DPF on your VW or Audi TDI or install a DPF bypass kit. The engine tuning must also be adjusted to account for the removal of post combustion injection of fuel and DPF removal. It might be possible to tune the post combustion injection to have bio produce the same results as regular diesel.
The future of DPF systems might substitute an extra injector in the exhaust to inject the post combustion fuel downstream of the engine instead of right in the engine cylinder. This type of system is required if the DPF is downstream of the Adblue or NOx catalyst. Modern systems which don't use post combustion injection at the engine use this type of injection. In fact, when TDI was first introduced to North America, the VW Passat TDI used a low pressure injector in the exhaust to burn up fuel in the catalyst. It was discontinued because it didn't work very well, see 1000q: VW Passat 5th injector for details. Technology has improved since 1994-1995 so it's possible this type of system might return. The main obstacle is additional complexity and cost vs. an extra squirt at the existing fuel injectors.
Trace metals in the biodiesel from processing can also accumulate and foul SCR catalysts. On Adblue equipped cars like the Touareg or Q7 TDI, (see below for a detailed system description), most contaminants will be trapped by the upstream DPF. The level of trace metals are also so small that the SCR should be more tolerant of contamination and last the "real" lifetime of the car, or over 400,000 miles.
For more basic information about biodiesel and VW, see 1000q: intro to biodiesel.

[tditom]

Dan-
The suggestion was to use up to 5% biodiesel. Nothing you shared from the other site would contradict that.

[TDIMeister]

http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehicles...1_p.pdf#page=9

http://www.nrel.gov/vehiclesandfuels...pdfs/42928.pdf

http://www.houston-cleancities.org/d...REL.pdf#page=6

http://www.nrel.gov/vehiclesandfuels...pdfs/40015.pdf

[JSWTDI09]

Wow! Thanks TDIMeister! It looks like I have plenty of reading for this weekend. You gotta love this place as a source of information.

Have Fun!

Don