www.tdiclub.com

Economy - Longevity - Performance
The #1 Source of TDI Information on the Web!
Forums Articles Links Meets
Orders TDI Club Cards TDIFest 2014 Gone, but not forgotten VAG-Com List Unit Conversions TDIClub Chat Thank You



Go Back   TDIClub Forums > VW TDI Discussion Areas > TDI 101

TDI 101 Got a simple/basic TDI question? Are you a newbie (new to the forums). Feel free to post your question here.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old December 14th, 2010, 18:52   #1
Bellyman
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Philadelphia, MS
Default Cam replacement - help me understand break-in oil

There are quite a few people dealing with replacing camshafts here so I'm thinking this may be a part of the process. Otherwise, I wasn't sure if this could have gone in the "fuel & lubes" forum. (?)

From the reading I've done here, there are a number of opinions on break-in oil, many quite similar, but one or two radically different from others.

What I'm having a hard time wrapping my brain around is what is going on in an engine that we would need a different kind of oil after a cam and lifter replacement. When we use the break-in oil, are we tring to do a sort of controled wear? Is the break-in oil supposed to allow less wear than the synthetic that we're supposed to be running?

I guess it's not so much a procedure I'm looking for. I can find several in a search here. But I was looking a little deeper trying to understand why a break-in oil. What happens if you just stick the synthetic that you intend to run for the next 150k miles in it from the beginning?

Just trying to go beyond "he said" or "she said" and understand what's going on at a deeper level.

Anybody wanna have a shot at 'splainin' it? I can't be the first one to wonder.

Thanks,

Brian
Bellyman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 14th, 2010, 19:07   #2
Dimitri16V
Veteran Member
 
Dimitri16V's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: DE
Default

Personally I would just use M-1 TDT 5W-40 for the initial break-in and coat the surfaces with zddp additive.
I don't think synthetics would prevent the cam lobes and lifter surfaces from breaking in . Using a dino oil would probably be fine too as long as it something with higher viscosity and enough additives.
__________________
PAK-FA flies !!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YCQsN8O_Q4

Fools are cut from the fabric of ignorance, and the American citizens make the cloth.

Do we blame others for robbing the bank when we hand them the keys to the vault and turn out the lights?

Goldman Sachs says they paid us back with interest. What about the $ 13 billion they stole out of our pockets thru AIG ?


2001 Golf TDi 134K
2004 Golf TDi 205K
1987 Scirocco16V 185K
1998 Camry 125K
Dimitri16V is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 15th, 2010, 04:42   #3
Bellyman
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Philadelphia, MS
Default

Thanks, Dimitri,

That's one of the viewpoints I've seen from a couple of people. And I'm not arguing one way or another.

But I do read about a number of other very respected people who suggest rather strongly that we need to be using a break-in oil as a part of the procedure for replacing a cam.

I have a hard time remembering the "rules" until I understand the "why" behind them. Once that clicks, it's more like common sense.

I also wondered what the deal is about not idling the engine after starting it up with the fresh new cam. Is it a matter of oil pressure? Less vibration or stress?

I dunno, maybe I'm asking questions where I shouldn't and should just quietly go obey someone's instructions (pick the ones I think I like the best??).

It's not a matter of trying to be obnoxious, not at all. It's just that when I understand the "why" of something, it opens up a whole new world.

Thanks again for the reply.

Brian
Bellyman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 15th, 2010, 04:51   #4
oilhammer
Certified Volkswagen Nut Vendor
 
oilhammer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: St Louis
Default

I'd do the same think the Volkswagen factory does every year with hundreds of thousands of engines: put some motor oil of the proper spec on the engine parts, fill the crankcase up, and start the car and drive it like normal.

People overthink a lot of things, this is one of them. If "improper cam break-in" was such an issue, you'd see brand new cars littering the dealer service bays with flat cams before their first scheduled PM. But you don't. So it isn't.

Drive more, worry less.
__________________
oilhammer
www.cardocautomotive.com
oilhammer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 15th, 2010, 05:12   #5
PDJetta
Veteran Member
 
PDJetta's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Northern Virginia
Default

Brian:

The Bentley Manual for the BEW engine in the camshaft R & R section simply states to coat surfacs with engine oil.

--Nate
__________________
2004 Jetta GLS TDI 5M Plat. Grey w/ Leather. RC Stage 2, G60/VR-6 clutch, steel skid plate, TDIHeater, CAT 2um fuel flter, Phat Noise, and VDO boost & volt guages.
PDJetta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 15th, 2010, 06:24   #6
coalminer16
Veteran Member
 
coalminer16's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Central Wisconsin
TDI(s): Golf 2004
Fuel Economy: as good as 58 (over 700 miles) and as low as 30 over the same route
Default

I would think your normal oil would work fine since you don't want a controlled wear on anything other then the piston rings with the cylinder walls. Am I wrong on that assumption? I would thing the correct oil would help prevent the wear on the cam which is what you want.
__________________
Shade Tree Mechanic "I'm too shady to know anything"
1981 Rabbit car-4 door, 1.9 TD aaz, 5 spd
1981 Caddy VW truck-Topper with it
2004 Golf-2 inch lift, Q-loader stage 1 tune
Vag-Com owner
Quote:
Originally Posted by rmchambers
I really had no idea that VW dealerships were so awful to go to, they sound like undertakers cos everything that goes in there winds up dead.
coalminer16 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 15th, 2010, 06:50   #7
PDJetta
Veteran Member
 
PDJetta's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Northern Virginia
Default

There is also a certain bearing cap tightening sequence for the BEW listed in the Bentley Manual. If you need it, I can look this evening. Just let me know.

--Nate
__________________
2004 Jetta GLS TDI 5M Plat. Grey w/ Leather. RC Stage 2, G60/VR-6 clutch, steel skid plate, TDIHeater, CAT 2um fuel flter, Phat Noise, and VDO boost & volt guages.
PDJetta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 15th, 2010, 06:56   #8
Franko6
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Sw Missouri
Default

I know I get an argument on the worthiness of break-in oils.

Don't take it from me. Google "Flat Tappet Break-In" or "Cam Break-in". Start reading. The first 1/2 hr of cam and lifter contact is where the difference happens. For a few dollars more, I'm going to try to do the best.

I won't make as much of an issue of break-in oils for stock ALH's or any engine before, when you are worried about cam break-in, but if you are talking about PD motors, the question changes. Despite however many PD's are on the road without issue, there are a LOT of PD motors biting the dust due to excessive cam/ lifter wear. On the PD's, I would not suggest cutting any corners on break-in.

If a car gets re-ringed, it sure helps to get the job done.

Other than that, VW does put the engines through their own break-in period and use their own methods, which they don't divulge. I can't say if they do or don't use an initial period break-in oil, but you can bet it's not what you get off the shelf.
__________________
Frank's VW TDI's, LLC
1007 Olive St.
Lockwood, MO 65682
417-232-4634
FranksTDIs@sbcglobal.net

'02 80k grey leather, 99.5 R.I.P 153k
'85A2 NA 375k, '91 A3 290k Always Silver, Always a Jetta
Franko6 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 15th, 2010, 08:03   #9
Bellyman
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Philadelphia, MS
Default

I have been reading online and I must not be getting it. Most are pointing at gas powered racing situations and looking at various diesel oils that have better additive packages, sometimes wanting to add ZDDP or use off road oils. Umm, we're using diesel oil all the time.

I'm trying to figure out... if the ZDDP or heavier additive oils are desirable so that there isn't damage from the cam lobe sliding over the tappet while these things get to know each other, why is it often stated that a synthetic is too "slippery" to be used as a break in oil?

I'm not trying to be obnoxious, really I'm not. But after reading and reading and reading, it sounds like going to the doctor with a sprain and him saying I need to use "hot ice" to treat it. "Just heat the ice up, it's the best of both worlds." I know that sounds stupid, but it's making almost as much sense as what I'm reading online.

The other thing I'm finding is that a lot of the information online is old and I'm doubting that the products and formulations that were available in 4 or 5 years ago are still as available today.

Again, I'm not saying a break in oil is right or wrong, but I'm really not any closer to understanding WHY one would be needed and what it's doing differently than our typical everyday diesel engine oil.

It may be beyond my understanding, and I won't belabor the subject. I'm just someone who has a hard time leaving an unsolved puzzle alone. Beleive it or not, these are the kinds of things that will keep me awake at nights trying to get a logical and rational handle on. LOL!

Thanks for the replies.

Brian
Bellyman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 15th, 2010, 08:12   #10
Bellyman
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Philadelphia, MS
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PDJetta View Post
There is also a certain bearing cap tightening sequence for the BEW listed in the Bentley Manual. If you need it, I can look this evening. Just let me know.

--Nate
Thanks, Nate. I do have the Bentley manual and just looked through the sequence again. But I appreciate the offer.

Brian
Bellyman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 15th, 2010, 09:33   #11
schoolsout
Veteran Member
 
schoolsout's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Awendaw, SC
Fuel Economy: 40-45
Default

All I can say is the Joe Gibbs BR30 oil is really not any more expensive than any other oil you'd use.

A case shipped is about $95-100 and that is for 10 qts (might be 12, but not sure). So, why not? You're going to change the oil rapidly after break-in from what I understand.
schoolsout is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 15th, 2010, 10:17   #12
Bellyman
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Philadelphia, MS
Default

No problem on the expense. Some BR30 is relatively minor when looking at the grand I'm dropping on this little field trip. It's not about the money. I just would kinda like to understand WHY I'm doing what I'm doing, that's all.

(Notice I didn't say that I was going to use it, nor did I say I wasn't going to use it.)

Brian
Bellyman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 15th, 2010, 10:21   #13
schoolsout
Veteran Member
 
schoolsout's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Awendaw, SC
Fuel Economy: 40-45
Default

I feel your pain on the costs associated here

I've done the DMF and have sent off a check for the cam stuff all within about one month. I don't know the whys, all I know is that it was recommended by a few that are much smarter than me.
schoolsout is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 15th, 2010, 10:29   #14
Franko6
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Sw Missouri
Default

When VW puts an the engine together, they use a break-in oil. When I put an engine together, I use a break-in oil.

Sure, when you are racing, you ALWAYS break in an engine.

If you think about it, we are talking a low rpm, high pressure, long-life expectancy engine. I'm going to give it the best opportunity to get it right.

That's the way I was brought up on engines.

Btw: another drumbeat you'll hear when talking break-in. Use a non-synthetic oil.

JG is 12 qt case for $86.

Edit: Some think that adding ZDDP additives to oil is a good break-in idea. Wrong...

One of the reasons I use a break-in oil is that the oil is not only non-synthetic, but also non-detergent. The reason... The detergents and the ZDDP fight each other. The ZDDP is trying to get on the cam and the detergents are trying clean them off. You want the ZDDP to fill any microscopic pores in the cam and lifter faces. The smooth and pore-less finish is the desirable goal.
__________________
Frank's VW TDI's, LLC
1007 Olive St.
Lockwood, MO 65682
417-232-4634
FranksTDIs@sbcglobal.net

'02 80k grey leather, 99.5 R.I.P 153k
'85A2 NA 375k, '91 A3 290k Always Silver, Always a Jetta

Last edited by Franko6; December 15th, 2010 at 10:40.
Franko6 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 15th, 2010, 10:29   #15
danham
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Cape Cod, MA
TDI(s): 2010 JSW
Default

I can't add to the break-in oil debate, other than to observe that having rebuilt many Porsche, Audi and VW engines have never used it and never had problems. But be aware this was before synthetics came along.

As for not letting it idle for long periods, that's true of any new/rebuilt engine: you want plenty of oil pressure at all times.

The last vehicle I did a cam/lifters job on was my 302 V8 Ford and the new (aftermarket, performance) cam came with special assembly lube and a strict warning to keep revs above 2500 or so for at least the first 30 minutes.

-dan
__________________
2010 Jetta TDI SportWagen, black/black, stick, pano roof, Porto 17" wheels, iPod, protection & luggage Legos, nuvi 760 GPS, V1 radar, DRLs disabled, iPhone "GasBook" app as fuel finder.
Previous rides: '06 Audi A3 2.0T (traded for JSW); '98 Audi A4 1.8TQ chipped; '92 Corrado VR6; '90 Corrado G-60; '87 GTI 16v; '83 GTI; '77 Diesel Rabbit; '71 Porsche 914-4; '67 Volvo 122S; '66 Porsche 912.
danham is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:34.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright - TDIClub Online LTD - 2014
Contact Us | Privacy Statement | Forum Rules | Disclaimer
TDIClub Online Ltd (TDIClub.com) is not affiliated with the VWoA or VWAG and is supported by contributions from viewers like you.
1996 - 2013, All Rights Reserved
Page generated in 0.16540 seconds with 9 queries
[Output: 126.38 Kb. compressed to 105.30 Kb. by saving 21.08 Kb. (16.68%)]