22,000 Mile oil change on BEW PD

Details:
- Mobil 1 Turbo Diesel Truck 5w40
- Amsoil By-Pass filter
- 246,000 Miles total, cam and lifter replaced at 126K (by me)
- 22,000 Miles on the engine oil
- Oil added in 22K: 1 quart
- 80K air filter changes or 4 years or 25" WC using a CAT filter restriction meter
- No fuel additives, ULSD only




Compare the 10K sample to the 22K sample...Wear rates DROPPED!

Viscosity too high.
Anti-wear (Zn/P) additives start to run out and reached typical VW505.01 oil levels.
Iron slightly elevated, but hell, it's 22k miles!

Nice!

It is unfortunate for the owner, the camshaft and lifters had to be replaced @ 146,000 miles.

There are truly a host of conclusions one can make given the information and data. Some will conclude their 5,000 miles and 10,000 miles are still just wonderful, i.e., good insurance, cheap, peace of mind, etc. They will also continue to crack open and check perfectly good air filters, that in effect should be left alone for 80,000 to 100,000 miles.

One issue that should be emphasized, the wear metals almost across the board (sans lead) are LOWER (ppm per 1,000 miles) than the VW recommended 10,000 miles. This with an OCI @ 22,000 miles !!!! More importantly, that is using a 216% LONGER OCI !!! I don't know about most folks, but to me this is HUGE !!!

Further, & cummulatively, the oil still can perform. Indeed a 25,000 miles OCI can be swagged. That would be just to get TO the wear metals exhibited at a 10,217 miles OCI !!! This would jump it to a 250% longer OCI !!!??? (yes, I know most people continue to snooze at this)

Another is these UOA's are two more data points in the "proof positive" side of the ledger, that a so called "newer air filter" actually filters worse than a so called slightly to more used filter. (21% worse)

So not only am I happy with longer OCI's, (non PD) 25,000 miles with the last being @ 30,700 miles; I am also happy with longer air filter intervals 40,000 to (just passing 80,000 miles on the way to) 100,000 miles. The longer miles used air filter, filters better. This creates even LESS wear (swag here). The longer OCI's (another data point) are actually more gentle (wear wise) than the VW recommended 10,000 miles OCI !!! Got to love them.

You see everything I saw, makes you wonder why anybody would perform an early oil change!

As usual, great info from the master guru, 747 pilot Drivbiwire. Thank you.

K&N would say clean no sooner than 50K, but not many fans of those here, due to MAF issues, allegedly.

Drivbiwire said:

You see everything I saw, makes you wonder why anybody would perform an early oil change!

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Makes you wonder why people still doubt TDT.

Drivbiwire said:

You see everything I saw, makes you wonder why anybody would perform an early oil change!

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Because of moisture accumulation and fuel dilution. If you do short trips, city driving, those issues are really an issue.

donDavide said:

K&N would say clean no sooner than 50K, but not many fans of those here, due to MAF issues, allegedly.

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But for MAF issues you couldn't just clean the MAF sensor and leave the filter alone?

Pete, this is great data! I might try it on my next oil change, I'll wait to 20K miles and do an oil analysis followed by a 10K oil analysis! Now I just need to find places to drive to .

The Mobil 1/TDT is certainly a fine product, but a 2um absolute, Amsoil bypass filter will significantly improve the performance of any conventional or synthetic lube. For example, the reason the insolubles actually dropped from the previous test is that the bypass filter becomes even more efficient as it loads up, and the larger pores are blocked by solid particulates. If you hadn't use bypass filtration, the solids level @ 22k would be too high, the oil would be too thick and wear performance and cold weather starting performance would suffer. (Note that some of this thickening is simply from evaporation of the more volatile portions of the base stock and additive package).

My specific recommendations would be to thoroughly clean the fuel injectors (ultrasonically off of the engine if necessary). This will reduce the levels of soot induced, upper engine metals (Al/Fe/Cr), as well as bring the solids level and viscosity back in line.

TS

Sweet! Makes me feel better about using it in my BEW. I had been changing the oil and by-pass filter both @ 10k. Might keep the oil in for 15k and the by-pass filter in for 30k.

donDavide said:

K&N would say clean no sooner than 50K, but not many fans of those here, due to MAF issues, allegedly.

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Given the topic of the thread, the above recommendation would be meaningful in the context of 2 pairs (4 tests) A/B test UOA's. 22,000 miles on oem air filter and on a K & N oil media filter and @ 44,000 miles (x2) Other than that, whatever one claims that K&N claims are... alledged/ly. Besides mineral oil ingestion on a system that was NOT designed to ingest ... mineral oil, is one aspect. The other is factorially increased SI (contamination) . So for example if not for the increased chances of mineral oil contamination, IF the K&N media (oiled or not) gave signifcantly better SI numbers, i.e., @ 22,000 miles less than 3/5 ppm or specifically -1 or -3 ppm, THEN, I would consider the cost effectiveness; and IF it was over the oem air filter, SWITCH !!!!!!

There is far too much data and (searchable) threads on www.bobistheoilguy and www.TDIclub.com that indicate why K & N allegations are ... suspect. Or as a minimum, do far worse than oem air filters (TDI's) anywhere from the full gambit from (factors LESS) than VW recommended 40,000 miles to (factors MORE) 80,000 to 100,000 miles.

TooSlick said:

The Mobil 1/TDT is certainly a fine product, but a 2um absolute, Amsoil bypass filter will significantly improve the performance of any conventional or synthetic lube. For example, the reason the insolubles actually dropped from the previous test is that the bypass filter becomes even more efficient as it loads up, and the larger pores are blocked by solid particulates. If you hadn't use bypass filtration, the solids level @ 22k would be too high, the oil would be too thick and wear performance and cold weather starting performance would suffer. (Note that some of this thickening is simply from evaporation of the more volatile portions of the base stock and additive package).

My specific recommendations would be to thoroughly clean the fuel injectors (ultrasonically off of the engine if necessary). This will reduce the levels of soot induced, upper engine metals (Al/Fe/Cr), as well as bring the solids level and viscosity back in line.

TS

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While I would not disagree that a great (AMSOIL) bypass oil filter and system has an effect (aka "significant"), it would be interesting to see what the actual quantification of an A/B test would be. It would be as simple as removal of said bypass filter, keeping the "system" intact, aka 1 more qt in the sump system.Then of course run a minimum of 2 UOA's 1. 10,000 miles OCI and 20,000. Realistically run 2 more 3. 25,000 miles 4. 30,000 miles. Also what would be the PREDICTION of significance?

Here is a bobistheoilguy chart http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/whatisoilanalysis.htm for "acceptable levels" Anyone can calculate the values, but it is more than apparent the results are WAY below "acceptable levels". So for example acceptable levels for FE/ Iron are 100 to 200 ppm. Even @ 22,000 miles OCI FE/Iron is @ 65 ppm.

The fact of the matter, on a marketing level, there is little to no interest in TDI bypass oil filters/systems products . So for example, it is interesting that (one vendor) Dieselgeek is clearing out his stock of oil bypass systems. I would imagine that he bore significant R & D and sustains large carry costs to bring that system to market. So for example, VOA's of new out of the bottle oils are significantly "lumpier" than so called USED oils run through an Amsoil 2 micron bypass filter. (simply amazing, but that is PURELY my op/ed)

I have two cars one with and one without a bypass. I will run them both to 20k this next round and compare how they do.

The TDT is tested out to 8% soot, this was around 2-3%.

Ted this car is due for some new nozzles, that is on the to do list.

There was a thread many eons ago in which someone was discussing the validity of doing partial oil changes at 5K miles intervals by removing half the oil and replacing it with new oil. The thought is the following: if the filter is getting getter with more mileage on it, would doing partial oil changes make sense and then change the filter a 20K intervals or maybe even 30K intervals?

I do not recall that testing was ever done on these variables. As a result, no reasonable let alone scientific conclusion was ever made.

I know that you know this, but for general consumption, VW oem filters (Mann, the like) are actually specified to be able to run 30,000 miles.

As a practical matter, in effect that is what one does if one "tops" with oil. So for example, on a 4.5 qt sump if you consume say 1 qt of oil in 5,000 miles, and add 1 qt, your have given the system (sump) a 22% recharge. (1/4.5=). In theory (if one follows the VW oem recommended 10,000 miles interval) one can extend the interval a min of 22%. Or TO 12,200 miles.

Drivbiwire said:

You see everything I saw, makes you wonder why anybody would perform an early oil change!

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What was the TBN of the 22,000 mile sample?

Since a TBN normally is extra cost, it appears a TBN was not done.

Probably more importantly, TBN in the days of LSD (500 ppm sulfur- soot and sludge formation potential) used to be very important (almost critical for the cummulative readings) ULSD (mandatory since OCT 2006) is now @ 15 ppm standard and nominally delivered @ the pump @ 5 to 7 ppm sulfur. This reduces the soot and sludge formation potential by range of -97 to -99 percent.

TBN testing isn't war rated with only 22k, if this were run beyond that the 30k sample would have had the test performed.

Generally with ULSD you can run 3 years without depleting an oil that starts out with a TBN of 10.

ruking said:

I do not recall that testing was ever done on these variables. As a result, no reasonable let alone scientific conclusion was ever made.

I know that you know this, but for general consumption, VW oem filters (Mann, the like) are actually specified to be able to run 30,000 miles.

As a practical matter, in effect that is what one does if one "tops" with oil. So for example, on a 4.5 qt sump if you consume say 1 qt of oil in 5,000 miles, and add 1 qt, your have given the system (sump) a 22% recharge. (1/4.5=). In theory (if one follows the VW oem recommended 10,000 miles interval) one can extend the interval a min of 22%.

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I was not aware that we could run 30K miles on the OE filters. Maybe I will start doing partial oil changes @ 7500 miles, removing 2 quarts and adding 2 quarts of new oil and change the filter at 30K miles. I will do an oil analysis at the next oil change and then start the experiment and have oil analysis done every 10K miles. Would this be helpful? What would everyone want me to run as oil? Mobil, Rotella, others?

NewTdi said:

I was not aware that we could run 30K miles on the OE filters. Maybe I will start doing partial oil changes @ 7500 miles, removing 2 quarts and adding 2 quarts of new oil and change the filter at 30K miles. I will do an oil analysis at the next oil change and then start the experiment and have oil analysis done every 10K miles. Would this be helpful? What would everyone want me to run as oil? Mobil, Rotella, others?

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If I had your 2003 Jetta, I would run Rotella T6. Nice price, good oil.

NewTdi said:

I was not aware that we could run 30K miles on the OE filters. Maybe I will start doing partial oil changes @ 7500 miles, removing 2 quarts and adding 2 quarts of new oil and change the filter at 30K miles. I will do an oil analysis at the next oil change and then start the experiment and have oil analysis done every 10K miles. Would this be helpful? What would everyone want me to run as oil? Mobil, Rotella, others?

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Bad idea!

Partial flushes will interfere with the additives, you are better off to just top off as required and rely on the oils dispersants to keep the motor clean.

NewTdi said:

I was not aware that we could run 30K miles on the OE filters. Maybe I will start doing partial oil changes @ 7500 miles, removing 2 quarts and adding 2 quarts of new oil and change the filter at 30K miles. I will do an oil analysis at the next oil change and then start the experiment and have oil analysis done every 10K miles. Would this be helpful? What would everyone want me to run as oil? Mobil, Rotella, others?

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To me, it would be waste of time, money and resources. However there are/is a pretty fair number and I would guess percentage of Rotella T6 10,000 miles UOA's. So since Shell Rotella (T6) is usually mentioned in the same sentence as Mobil One 5w40 TDT, 15,000, 20,000, and 25,000, + (UP) miles OCI's would make good comparo's.

Drivbiwire said:

Bad idea!
Partial flushes will interfere with the additives, you are better off to just top off as required and rely on the oils dispersants to keep the motor clean.

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Pete,
but the issue is that the car does not burn any oil, if I were to drive 20K miles I might have to add 250ml ; am I missing something here?

No, you are not missing a thing.

250 ml is what (8.5 oz)?, You say 250 ml (not sure at what your intervals are) I say 8 oz (close enough?) . Mine is a range of 1/4 qt to 1/2 qt, 8 oz to 16 oz and that is with 25,000 to 30,700 intervals !!.

NewTdi said:

Pete,
but the issue is that the car does not burn any oil, if I were to drive 20K miles I might have to add 250ml ; am I missing something here?

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The low quantity of make-up oil will not (or at least reduce) interference with the additives.

Most oil monitoring systems will give credit for adding make-up oil by increasing the mileage remaining till the next oil change.

However adding a large quantity of oil such as replacing half the sump defeats the purpose of having oil formulated for extended drains. You are increasing that initial batch of cleansing additives and disrupting the balance you achieved in that first 3000 miles. Wear rates will generally go down as the oil accumulates mileage. There is a limit, but I doubt most owners will ever reach that point before changing the oil out.

VW has proven that 30,000 mile oil changes are possible. The thickening that occurs is generally the cause for the change out rather than increased wear. If you notice that the long drain oils all start out with very thin viscosities, this allows the thickening to occur without the oil substantially impacting the fuel economy.

The TDT, shows that it gets quite thick over a 20K change. Optimum for fuel economy, no. Does it continue to protect the motor absolutely!

As the saying suggests "If it ain't broke..." don't change the oil or upset the balance of the additives in the sump.

I cannot say for certain what the maximum viscosity would be when running a 5w40 in terms of its maximum. A few around here think a w50 is a good way to go, however just running a 5w40 and going 25K on the changes puts you at the point that these oils are just starting out at.

I am a firm believer that the less you mess with the motor, the better off you are.

There's all this talk about how great Mobil1 TDT and other Mobil1 HD truck oils are, but no way of running one in my vehicle without harming the DPF. Is this a new fact of life for 2009+ owners that we can't save one without harming the other? There has been the suggestion that the M1 5W40 ESP M might be better, but that seems marginal at best. The viscosity of the 507 rated 5W30s are quite close to the M1 5W40 ESP M.

2009+ TDI with DPF/SCR = Mobil 1 5w40 ESP Formula M

The key is the Sulfated ash which meets (beats) the SCR requirements for VW. The only variation is that the 507.00 spec has a slightly better fuel economy rating (thinner viscosity), aside from that the M1 beats the 507.00 oil in every other respect!

Hands down the ONLY oil I would use (and do). If it's good enough for my $30,000 engine in the Bluetec's with DPF, SCR (NOx) its going to knock one out of the park for a TDI!

My son gave me a 1996 passat tdi with about 240m on it it now has about270m on it.The oil used in it needed only the diesel name on it.If it was going to be cold in Wi. a thinner oil was used if warm heavier.The car on a trip gets about60 mpg,AROUND TOWN AND SHORTER AROUND 50MPG.iT HAS THE SAME CLUTCH,NOTHING HAS BEEN DONE TO THE MOtor.Timing belts were changed and there isn't any resrection between the converter and the end of the tail pipe.My son also gave me a 2004 Passat which pales in comparison to th 96.

I may switch to it when my car is out of warranty.

2009+ TDI with DPF/SCR = Mobil 1 5w40 ESP Formula M

The key is the Sulfated ash which meets (beats) the SCR requirements for VW. The only variation is that the 507.00 spec has a slightly better fuel economy rating (thinner viscosity), aside from that the M1 beats the 507.00 oil in every other respect!

Hands down the ONLY oil I would use (and do). If it's good enough for my $30,000 engine in the Bluetec's with DPF, SCR (NOx) its going to knock one out of the park for a TDI!

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