Lots of diesel smelling white smoke

genemar · Oct 5, 2010

I need some help. I bought an almost non running 2002 TDI new beetle. It had a blown turbo which I replaced, washed out all the oil from the intake system hoses, pipes and intercooler, and the whole exhaust system. From there I replaced the injector nozzles with sprint 357's because the ones in there were really large nozzles that would require a larger turbo and chipping. I replaced the MAF, verified the related solenoid valves for the turbo and EGR were working correct and all the vacuum lines were good, making sure the system including the vacuum resevoir and check valves hold vacuum. I cleaned out the EGR valve (checked that it worked) and verified the intake is clean and not plugged. With Vagcom I reset the IQ to 5 and set the timing to the middle of the graph. I ran diesel purge through the system and replaced the fuel filter. At that point the car starts and runs good, idles without to much smoke, but as soon as I put a load on it it is puking out lots and lots of white smoke (and its not a coolant issue, not coolant loss or overheating, no moisture in the oil). Also oil and filter were replaced, old oil was black but no water mixed in, and the air filter was replaced and snow screen cleaned. I dont have any codes coming up for the engine in Vagcom. By the way the car only has 65K on it, and it looks super clean under the valve cover and the cam lobes and lifters look great.

White smoke to me means overfueling, unburnt fuel. Im thinking maybe timing, like the cam is off a tooth, or maybe the fuel temp sensor in the pump. Any ideas? Im running out of things to check and I know its got to be something simple or obvious that Im missing.

FlashT · Oct 5, 2010

Black smoke means overfueling, not white. Check for coolant migration, clean the intercooler, get the injectors shimmed and balanced. Verify that the mechanical timing on the belt is set properly. Replace the fuel temp. sensor for good measure. Make sure the coolant temp. sensor is functioning, it has an effect on timing as well. Something else to check is the oil feed line to the turbo. A turbo that is getting fried will puke white smoke when it is subjected to load.

That's about all I can think of for now, so good luck!

aja8888 · Oct 5, 2010

White/bluish smoke means you are burning motor oil. Check the cylinder compression for possible worn/stuck rings. Also, valve guides may be worn allowing some oil to pass, especially after idling for a while.

Ski in NC · Oct 5, 2010

White/blue is very often unburnt diesel. Check the compression. With a turbo failure, engine may have ingested oil through intake making hydraulic lock. This can bend rods, and piston no longer comes all the way up. Even a slight difference in piston height will be visible in a compression check.

genemar · Oct 5, 2010

Thanks for the advice

Well I appreciate all of your suggestions. The turbo cartrige is new and the vanes move freely. I really cleaned the entire system well with kerosene and then soap and water (all the intake and all the exhaust, including cat and muffler). When I got it, I did find about 1.5 quarts of oil in the intercooler. So lets all pray and hope that no rods are bent. The car starts on a dime from dead cold and its hitting all the notes, no weird noises.

There is no blue or black smoke and when I pulled the turbo cartrige back out to check to see that the vanes were moving freely and the vacuum diaphram rod was adjusted correctly, I didnt see any oil residue in either the exhaust or intake sides, so I dont think the turbo is the problem, the oil feed line has oil flowing, so the turbo is not getting starved.

Im in the process of reseting the timing belt, I noticed at TDC, that the camshaft slot viewed with the vacuum pump off, is slightly tilted and the slot not perfectly parallel with the seam, just maybe a few millimeters difference between on side of the slot and the other with the seam. So Im wondering if the guy who I bought it from, and had changed the timing belt, was off a tooth on the cam when replacing it. As for the injection pump, at TDC, I can get a pin in the slot and lock it.

Anyway Im going to first attempt to make sure the timing belt is correctly installed, and reset the timing. If that doesnt work, I will replace the fuel and coolent sensors, and check compression. I would like to have the injectors shimmed and balanced, but only as a last resort, money is tight.

How badly will a defective fuel or coolent sensor affect the fueling? Will either of those cause lots of white smoke. The smoke is real stinky like diesel, no moisture, Im sure its not coolent.

nicklockard · Oct 5, 2010

What does the timing graph in VCDS look like? It sounds like it's very retarded, which will puke out copious amounts of unburnt and partially burnt fuel.

genemar · Oct 5, 2010

Well at temperature, Its in spec, right around the middle of the curve. I read some the threads on hydrolocking due to oil, and Im concerned. Maybe, checking the compression isnt such a bad idea, cause it just seems like way to much white smoke. So maybe either way off timing somehow, or bent rods. I did see a couple of intermitant misfire codes in the process of dialing in the engine up to know. Would you see random misfire codes from bent rods?

nicklockard · Oct 5, 2010

It's not infeasable, especially on a cold engine.

turbocharged798 · Oct 5, 2010

genemar said:
Well I appreciate all of your suggestions. The turbo cartrige is new and the vanes move freely. I really cleaned the entire system well with kerosene and then soap and water (all the intake and all the exhaust, including cat and muffler). When I got it, I did find about 1.5 quarts of oil in the intercooler. So lets all pray and hope that no rods are bent. The car starts on a dime from dead cold and its hitting all the notes, no weird noises.

There is no blue or black smoke and when I pulled the turbo cartrige back out to check to see that the vanes were moving freely and the vacuum diaphram rod was adjusted correctly, I didnt see any oil residue in either the exhaust or intake sides, so I dont think the turbo is the problem, the oil feed line has oil flowing, so the turbo is not getting starved.

Im in the process of reseting the timing belt, I noticed at TDC, that the camshaft slot viewed with the vacuum pump off, is slightly tilted and the slot not perfectly parallel with the seam, just maybe a few millimeters difference between on side of the slot and the other with the seam. So Im wondering if the guy who I bought it from, and had changed the timing belt, was off a tooth on the cam when replacing it. As for the injection pump, at TDC, I can get a pin in the slot and lock it.

Anyway Im going to first attempt to make sure the timing belt is correctly installed, and reset the timing. If that doesnt work, I will replace the fuel and coolent sensors, and check compression. I would like to have the injectors shimmed and balanced, but only as a last resort, money is tight.

How badly will a defective fuel or coolent sensor affect the fueling? Will either of those cause lots of white smoke. The smoke is real stinky like diesel, no moisture, Im sure its not coolent.

First off, please don't tell me that you bought a Chinese turbo cartridge. The entire unit must be replaced with nothing less that a genuine Garrett turbo. Spending money on a non-Garrett unit is a waste of money and can damage the engine.

Second, if the timing belt was done right, the cam timing should be dead on. There is no such thing as"a tooth off". By pulling the cam pulley, loosing the IP pulley, locking both the cam and IP, and re-tightening everything down, the timing should be very close to perfect.

Third, do a compression test before going any further. Possibility of bent rods is quite high if the turbo failed by dumping a bunch of oil down the intake. Harbor fright makes a diesel compression tester that is pretty inexpensive and works well.

genemar · Oct 5, 2010

Yep, I got a chinese turbo, sorry, it may be cheap, but its all I can afford right now. I agree, there was alot of oil, I mean alot in the IC, and in the exhaust. I think its a real possibility that it could be oil hydrolock. I will order a diesel compression tester and check the compression. As for the timing, I didnt do the last install. Im just fixing what the last idiot did, and hopefully I get it right and dont get the idiot title myself, lol. Your all great, and I really appreciate your help. One question, and dont laugh, but why do You have to loosen the camshaft pulley nut, I can understand locking the cam and IP, but why loosen the cam pulley nut, is that so you can wiggle on the belt and have some give and take.

genemar · Oct 5, 2010

Ive got a couple more questions if you dont mind. When I do the compression test, should the car be warm or cold, and what kind of psi should I see for a healthy engine. What kind of difference between cylinders would indicate bent rods. Also if I take the oil pan off, would I be able to visually see if any rods were bent, or would they be bent just slightly and not apparent. What do you think? Also does the camshaft and cam pulley have a woodruf key or something that locks it in one position, or is it locked in position by just the one center bolt?

puter · Oct 5, 2010

Please do not try to start the car or compression test while there are large amounts of oil in the intake.

you also realize that by buying the cheap turbo you are likely setting yourself up to have to buy a whole new engine, right? You really are not saving any money at all.

genemar · Oct 5, 2010

Hi thanks for your help, any oil that was in the cylinders, intake, or exhaust, is long gone, as the whole intake was cleaned, and also all the exhaust. The car has been started many times since. Why are you so against an after market turbo, even if its fit and finish is not as good as a german or american counterpart. In fact I looked at it and the quality doesnt look that bad. Yes its probaly not as good as the genuine thing, but have you had one blow up. My original garret shattered, does that make it a bad product. Who on this site has a horror story about the chinese turbo cartrige, and why its a horrible product. Tell me please, I would like to know, maybe I will dump it for a more expensive part, if Im convinced. Who knows maybe it will shatter in a week or maybe it will go 60K. But for the record, if I had more $, I would buy a garrette. You know there was a time when made in Japan and Korea was a bad thing, now they make high quality products. Even the first VW beetles were less then perfect quality when they first arrived. You know my three MBZ diesels never had all these problems like the VW diesels, but I have had lots of VW's and stand by them. So I guess its the perspective you have toward something and loyalty to a name brand. The old VW rabbit diesels only had two types of owners, those who swore by them, and those who swore at them. Anyway, I do appreciate everyones help, and I have some new ideas as to the source of my problems on my new beetle.

Ski in NC · Oct 5, 2010

Chinese parts are not all poor quality. It's just that the quality is maddeningly inconsistent. If the chinese turbo is working fine, then keep using it. It might last just fine. Or it might crap out quick. If it craps out, then get the oem part.

streeker02 · Oct 5, 2010

I'm guessing bent con rod.....compression test will tell all.

aja8888 · Oct 5, 2010

As a new member here, please understand that many of us have been really burned by crappy quality parts so the typical response here is reactionary and with lots of warnings.

It's just us, and if the Chinese turbo works OK, then just take the postings as a caution.

Good compression should be 450 psi ++ in an average engine (cold) and pretty even in each cylinder.

puter · Oct 5, 2010

I understand people are trying to prevent you from feeling unwelcome here, our intent behind warning you (strongly encouraging yelling

) is to prevent the damage that results from a blown turbo.

If you want to put non-critical chinese crapware in, that's fine. Here is why you don't want to use chinese turbos:
1) Quality is incredibly inconsistent...you have no guarantee that this won't blow
2) If it does blow, fragmentation can destroy your engine, oil can cause a hydrolock. You could very likely be looking at thousands of dollars in damage
3)We have seen people go and buy these turbos. Have us come back and say "don't do this, it's a bad idea", and we get the same debates as we are having now. If/when the turbo does blow you hear "well damn, I wish I hadn't gotten this" and all we can think is that we could have saved the person thousands of dollars if we could have just done a better job convincing them. The result? we become more persistent to keep it from happening next time.

The point is, a turbo, a head, etc are all very high precision parts that just do not mix will with the very low quality control that you find from cheap parts factories.

So, there you have it...that's why you're seeing such a push not to use a cheap turbo. you get what you pay for, and in this case you could very well end up paying for what you get.

genemar · Oct 6, 2010

I guys, I decided to just pull the head and oil pan and drop the pistons. Since I dont know how the car was treated prior to me getting it, its better safe then sorry. I figure I will have the valves ground, new valve seals, and resurface the head. Going to just put four brand new rods, new bearings, and rings, hone the cylinders. Put it all together and see how it runs. At least I will know that the internal parts are in good shape, and I will have a hopefully long running engine. Everything on the outside of the motor is in great shape, and while I have it apart, I can clean the intake manifold spotless ( I already cleaned the EGR real good). So I will let you know in about three weeks how it runs. Its worth it to me to invest 300 or 400 bucks and three weekends to come out with a great running car. Thanks again and I will let you know the outcome.

puter · Oct 6, 2010

If you are going to rework the head, I would strongly encourage you to send the head to frank to have it done.

Also, if the head is not damaged, I would rather see you spend the money on buying a turbo that is not liable to blow.

Ski in NC · Oct 6, 2010

When you get the head off, before you pull the pistons, measure piston top protrusion relative to block deck at tdc. That will tell you if you have bent rods.

genemar · Oct 6, 2010

Thanks guys, I like that suggestion to measure the pistons to the top of the block, and your right that will help tell the story if I got bent rods. Hey peace and forgiveness on the Chinese turbo, when I can afford it I will buy a genuine garrett, lol. But until then I will drive with caution and watch the turbo. Plus if I can swing it I would rather buy American, and Garrett is owned by Honeywell. I was thinking, how do you know Garrett isnt making its turbo's in China, lol. Its a little funny, but also sad, because alot of companies are moving manufacturing to cheaper countries. I feel bad that I buy cheaper items made some where else but sometimes its just a fact of life these days to survive on shrinking budgets, and higher cost of living. Thanks guys, I use your forum alot and have read many other threads to get my answers as I have been plugging away fixing this TDI Beetle. Take care and I will let you know the outcome.

BobnOH · Oct 6, 2010

genemar said:
`......... Plus if I can swing it I would rather buy American, and Garrett is owned by Honeywell. I was thinking, how do you know Garrett isnt making its turbo's in China, lol. Its a little funny, but also sad, because alot of companies are moving manufacturing to cheaper countries. I feel bad that I buy cheaper items made some where else but sometimes its just a fact of life these days to survive on shrinking budgets, and higher cost of living. ...............

the companies operating in China will reverse engineer almost anything.
the problem is we're seeing a lot of high-end parts like turbos, injection pumps and heads, fail early on a regular basis resulting in no money saved.
good luck, maybe it'll last forever

The J · Nov 12, 2010

Any progress on the rebuild?

I'm curious how it turned out.

And I believe the Honeywell/Garrett turbos are US engineered and built at their plants in Mexico.

genemar · Nov 16, 2010

All done, runs great and smoke free

Well here is the update. Took the head off and oil pan. # 3 rod was bent, luckily no damage to piston or rod journal. Replaced all four rods with a matched set. Replaced the rod bearings and piston rings. Put it all together, used new head and rod bolts. Set the timing, made my own cam and injection pump locks, used new cam bolt torqued to 45 pounds. Started right up, made a minor adjustment to timing with Vagcom, cleared codes. Had to replace the N75 solenoid, wasnt any good. Ran the car 120 miles late at night on the 10 freeway from Banning to Indio and back. Lots of smoke at first from residual oil in the exhaust system. Cleaned up after about 20 miles and by the time I got home, completely smoke free, no hint of Diesel from exhaust. Great power and very smooth. Been driving to work everyday, runs perfect, knock on wood, lol. Thanks guys for all your help!

nicklockard · Nov 16, 2010

Good solid work. Keep an ear on that turbo. If it starts making fluttering leaf noises (surge) or overboosts (get a gauge if you haven't got one already) or does boost creep then ****can it and replace with a Honeywell unit.

Edit: and check it for side-to-side free play every oil change. It might save you another rebuild. There should be an almost imperceptible amount of free play in a healthy turbo. If you can truly tell it's moved, it's shot.

genemar · Nov 16, 2010

Boost - whats considered over limit for TDI

If I add a boost gauge. Whats the max boost I should see and what number would be a red flag, and is over the limit?

nicklockard · Nov 16, 2010

For a stock VNT15 turbo and stock tuning it should hold about 13.5-15 boost psi max. But they can handle 18.5psi when run under a better chip tune. The most important thing is keeping track of free play and listening for surge flutter. Boost creep is when the max psi won't hold and it creeps up on a long hill. The VNT15 in your model year car isn't known for this though.

genemar · Nov 17, 2010

Thanks for the info on boost

Thats good info, I going to get a gauge pod for the top of the dash center to hold three 2 inch gauges. I was thinking about boost, volts and water temp. I really dont like idiot lights. Thanks again for the help.

DASH · Nov 17, 2010

@genemar Couple Questions... What was your garage setup while working on the car? Jack and Stands or did you have access to a lift to get this all done...

I have a 03 Jetta that seems to be exhibiting some of the same issues...

How long did it take you to do all the work you did and did you use the repair manual as well?

DASH · Nov 19, 2010

Bumping to the top...

Lots of diesel smelling white smoke

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