2.5 AEL 5 Cylinder upgrade

Well, I've not been here before, but I've been here before if that makes any sense. http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=240430

My original idea was to convert a UrS4 to TDI to get all the benefits of good handling, large loadspace and good pulling power. In the end I failed and have had to approach it more conventionally. It's meant to enjoyable this hobby off ours and this is what I hope to achieve now while attempting the project this way round.

Essentially, I need to raise the output of the AEL to around 230-250 bhp or thereabout to have comparable rolling performance to the gas car, with good throttle response too.
The chassis will be taken care of by transplanting from this car http://www.s2forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=46180 and will allow me to take the A6 off the road to make some bodywork repairs and mechanical modifications - while enjoying the V8 sound that you guys must hear on a daily basis.

I'm new to TDI tuning but have read a reasonable amount on the forum.

The bits I have so far.

ARP bolts - the 1.9 TDI bolts are the same AUDI PN as the 2.5TDI, but buying separately was prohibitive - so I bought two sets of 1.9TDI and have spares.

Garrett 2056V - From what I've gathered, this should give me good response and allow the power range I'm looking for.

Standard injectors are 0.216 (I think) so I've bought replacement nozzles and intend to get them swapped and set up/pop tested. Any UK or Scottish recommendations that will do this? I believe that these injectors should be good for 45-50 hp per pot and will make my target.

Catalytic Convertors will be removed as it does not contravene any legislation.

Spare SACHS uprated clutch and DM flywheel from my old S2 with only 10kmls of use. It held 360bhp with 520nm, but obviously that was generated further up the rev range. But hopefully should be ok if needed

I'll need to make an adaptor for the EM and add a vacuum actuator for the VNT. Also the associated plumbing mods, but nothing out of the ordinary... I think, advice please.

Current problems I have are a James Bond esque smokescreen on WOT above 3krpm and that's about it. What can this be? Solely worn nozzles
Or is it an indication of the pump heading south which is a concern...

Budget has a defined limit, but I'm hoping that I've nearly got it all covered already. Dyno/Rolling Road and remap should be fine.

Time - well the bodywork and power mods needs to be completed before the V8 comes off the road, October latest. The addictive sound of the V8 may be hard to part with, but the fuel bills won't.

Any advice or BTDT is much appreciated. I'll finish this one and hope have the Audi I want afterall.

Cheers,
Raymond

You can achieve 230-250 HP on your AEL with pretty much bolt-ons, except maybe the turbocharger. A lot of people are finding difficulty getting a variable geometry turbine turbocharger to work with the AEL's old-style engine control computer.

However, once you've cleared that hurdle, the usual suspects apply to coax more power out of the engine, and many of the components are similar or even interchangeable with the 4-cylinder TDI breathren: uprated fuel injector nozzles, upgraded injection pump, lift pump, etc.

Your problems with excess smoke is due to high EMP. Either lower it (bigger nozzles, more advance, cam timing, bigger turbine, better flowing head,...) or get stronger ex. valve springs...

0,216 are too small for your power target. You can make it with those, but that means extra heat load for the engine (injection window gets too wide).

Here's my old posting:


Recept:

-Volvo V70 -00 2.5TDI (AEL)
-mild performance cam
-HE221W turbo (wastegate)
-3" DP + "free flow" pipe
-big IC + pipes
-Bosio R520 II (7-hole)
-Turbotec live program with 1,8bar boost (<2bar EMP)
-modified clutch with SMF + SRE components

Got about 240bhp, 500Nm.

Changing those Bosio nozzles to DSS Ultime2 was the only mod and it got us to this:


Peak figures are now 281bhp, 594Nm. Gain was through the whole rev area, so maybe those Bosio RACE2 nozzles are bad indeed.

With DSS Ultime2 there's less smoke and I bet some 10-15hp more could be achieved with remapping, while smoke would raise the same level it was with RACE2.

With minor mods it should go over 300bhp...

Currently boost is 1,8bar, EMP 2,0bar.

Red line is bhp, green is wheel power in kilowatts (peak 181kW, 246hp).

Current performance:
80-120kmh 2,8s (3rd gear)
100-160kmh 7,0s (4th gear)
100-200kmh 14,0s (4th and 5th gear)

Consumption is about 5,5L/100km containing 30% town, 70% highway.

Times were taken from a video of the dash and those are an average of five takes each.

I was only consulting the build as I have some previous experience of diesels and 2.5TDI in particular.

EDIT. Had to use original DMF because of three broken gearbox, so torque is now restricted to 500Nm. We raised the max power to 294bhp and gave it some 300rpm more revs.

So,

I've got Garrett 2056V from 2007 320CDi - I believe this should be good for 250bhp, but is this the unit driven at the limit?

Unless there are any problems with this approach, then I'll go for the DS2 Ultime nozzles - where do I get them? and what's the approximate cost?

There's not a lot of room for a FMIC, so I'd rather used the position of the OEM unit if at all possible. Also the FMIC will also introduce an extra 1.3m or so of void to fill before spooling. If the OEM position is used with an upgraded core, will this significantly impact inlet temps?

3" Dp is not a problem as I'd need to mod the DP anyway. I won't need a screamer pipe with the VNT... (I think)

Measuring EMP and EGT preferred?

Mapping should be ok...

Looks like I also need a pressure type actuating bell for the VNT to run with EGR/N75 table... I think I'll be asking a bit more about this when I get to that.

It also looks as though I'll need to check the timing and therefore remove the camshaft pulley, so I'm thinking that I'm as well removing the cylinder head because I need to fit the ARP studs?(It would also let me do some porting while it's off). The question I have centres around the Audi recommendation that the head is not skimmed - I am already on the thickest 3hole headgasket. What are my headgasket options? and is it a dead loss if it needs skimmed?

A lot of questions... thanks

raymor said:

So,

I've got Garrett 2056V from 2007 320CDi - I believe this should be good for 250bhp, but is this the unit driven at the limit?

Unless there are any problems with this approach, then I'll go for the DS2 Ultime nozzles - where do I get them? and what's the approximate cost?

There's not a lot of room for a FMIC, so I'd rather used the position of the OEM unit if at all possible. Also the FMIC will also introduce an extra 1.3m or so of void to fill before spooling. If the OEM position is used with an upgraded core, will this significantly impact inlet temps?

3" Dp is not a problem as I'd need to mod the DP anyway. I won't need a screamer pipe with the VNT... (I think)

Measuring EMP and EGT preferred?

Mapping should be ok...

Looks like I also need a pressure type actuating bell for the VNT to run with EGR/N75 table... I think I'll be asking a bit more about this when I get to that.

It also looks as though I'll need to check the timing and therefore remove the camshaft pulley, so I'm thinking that I'm as well removing the cylinder head because I need to fit the ARP studs?(It would also let me do some porting while it's off). The question I have centres around the Audi recommendation that the head is not skimmed - I am already on the thickest 3hole headgasket. What are my headgasket options? and is it a dead loss if it needs skimmed?

A lot of questions... thanks

Click to expand...

Just chipped a MB Vito to 300bhp this morning. It has the same gt2056vk on it than you do, but is has also bigger displacement and 24 valves... With 300bhp Vito don't even smoke (DPF deleted), so I'm sure it's capable for 250bhp on AEL. Usually you don't need external wastegate with VNT.

TDIfreak here on the forum sells Ultime nozzles (he's a Finn like me).

That 1,3m means absolutely nothing. We have been using 8m long pressure pipes on my friend's T3... It doesn't matter what you use for IC, just make sure it works by measuring inlet temps.

EMP is important, EGT not that much.

I'm using original head bolts with my van (last setup was ~370bhp, 800Nm).

Well, the head can be skimmed a little. But then everything is possible if you just put your mind to it. For example my next setup has +4mm/+4mm valves which should be impossible with 81mm bore... Also my rods are 2mm longer than originals, but still using original pistons...

Thanks. I'll have a look at the front and see what size FMIC I can fit in front of the radiator if/when the current unit proves unsuitable.

What is the acceptable maximum inlet temps and whats preferred?

...and should I get a lift pump? and if so will the Facet Posi Flow 7-10psi 34USgal/hour be sufficient. If I get this, should I also get a better fuel filter?

Think I've got enough basic understanding to begin to get everything together now and get a move on... New 'stand in car' arrives on Tuesday, so need to get a plan in my head and make sure I've got enough budget so there are no delays. Been a while since I've been so excited to do some work on a car, so looking forward to it

one last question before I go for Ultime II... how much smoke is "With DSS Ultime2 there's less smoke"?

I'd like to run as cleanly as possible, so less smoke the better. Cheers

depends on the knowledge of the person mapping your vehicle

Anything from coal locomotive to clean. Depending on the mappimg as Rub said.

cool... cheers guys

That car has a visible haze of smoke @WOT. It would be really easy to push it close to 320bhp with this setup if wanted, but the owner prefers safety first which is wise when you actually need the car everyday.

raymor said:

Thanks. I'll have a look at the front and see what size FMIC I can fit in front of the radiator if/when the current unit proves unsuitable.

Click to expand...

Just finished instaling the FMIC, you can get an idea.
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=287880
The bumper and reinforcement had to be modified, but the S6 bumper might be big enough to house a good FMIC. I will post some new pictures if you want, just have to download them.

I have seen a few s6s running fmic,it is possible on those to move the 2 rads back an inch or so,not sure how far back is possible on the ael,will have to look at that

this looks quite nice: https://www.apikol.com/#Products,Intercooler,17
It's (for obvious reasons) designed for the s-bumper

But the routing of the ic-piping will be a bit of a problem i'm afraid.

Edit: Looks similar to Leo's fmic.

Will take some photos today with the pipes... there was some work to fit the pipes fir the fmic... the problem is you have no space in front

yeah the Apikol kit is really nice, well shaped endtanks but at $1299 it's out of budget. Yikes! That's a lot, but it is a complete solution I guess...

The return route will indeed be a little more convoluted, but it'll be similar to an Audi S2 setup (RS2 would be even better). The FMIC on that will cope with inlet temps of the K24 pushed to it's limit so may well a present a good solution. I'll need to keep my eyes open for a 2nd hand unit....

Leo, what clutch are you using?

for the moment i'm using stock, the custom clutch that I ordered didn't fit... and now i'm just sitting around and waiting.
the return for the IC was positioned under/in front of the oil pan.

another thing to consider is a chargecooler,should think it will fit in the stock position

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?p=3096634#post3096634
have posted some photos with the IC mounting. as I said, half of the front bumper has been cut (radiators were not moved).
the IC is a 550/230/65mm (overall size 700/230/65)

Cheers. I looked out the S6 wings and bumper at the weekend + a slender long FMIC I have, so will get a chance to check to see how much space there is this coming weekend.

I won't be cutting the bumper, so will need to find a way of getting it to fit if possible... looks like I've got most of the stuff I need except the injectors.

Ok. No update for a while but I'm going to start the head removal/ strip down/port/rebuild next week. I've got some time off so I should be able to make a fair dent in it.

• Intention is to dowel both EM and IM for repeated accurate location on the head.
• Port match and clean up both inlet and exhaust tracts. No major excavations, just smoothing the flow.
• Clean up of IM and EM. Slit saw the IM open and smooth the internals prior to rewelding.
• Refit head with new gasket and ARP studs.
• Fabricate adaptor from OEM EM to 2056V
• Fit FMIC - I have a 740 x 140 x 65 unit that I will plumb in.
• 3" DP and decat
• DSS Ultime nozzles - although this will depend if I can get someone to tune for no smoke

Problems I have not ironed out in my head yet

• Mapping - the ECU is this http://pics.tdiclub.com/showphoto.php?photo=69953&title=a628c4-29-tdi-quattro-ecu&cat=500 and another http://pics.tdiclub.com/showphoto.php?photo=69952&title=a628c4-29-tdi-quattro-ecu&cat=500 and I understand that this ECU isn't all singing and dancing. I'm comfortable enough burning EPROMs from files, so remote tune isn't a problem if I can pull the right data off for analysis. I just need someone thats had experience of getting the best out this ECU. Any ideas? Looking for someone who can do this? Any ecu upgrade would need to be PnP. I don't have the time or inclination to start on a mini project of rectifiying the wiring issues that a new ECU may bring. It will bring this project to a halt and it's my daily (apart from my bicycle ), so it can't be this way.
• Oil lines to the turbo. The turbo is missing the oil inlet/oulet flange. What does this look like for the 2056V? When I get that, I can then get lines made up at the local hydraulic hose shop.
• VNT actuator - I believe I need a pressure type actuator, but ideally this would need to be matched in some way? the opening pressure?

I'll feel better about this when I start doing something physically... but I need to plan well first.

Any help or guidance very much appreciated.

thanks,

Well, started the stripdown at last.
http://pics.tdiclub.com/showphoto.php?photo=70170&title=let-the-top-end-rebuild-begin&cat=500

Nothing eventful apart from a silent scream when trying to get the CATs off... a crushed nail is never much of a laugh

http://pics.tdiclub.com/showphoto.php?photo=70171&title=out-with-the-old&cat=500

There won't be much in way of space with the OEM air inlet, but that's the way it needs to be, so I'll need to be careful if I'm to get the merc2056 in.

http://pics.tdiclub.com/showphoto.p...read-chasing-and-vacuum-for-headstuds&cat=500

Head off and threads chased and debris vacuumed out (that'll be Hoovered if you're from Scotland )

http://pics.tdiclub.com/showphoto.php?photo=70173&title=clean-and-ready-to-go&cat=500

Bench all clean and head ready for stripdown.

http://pics.tdiclub.com/showphoto.php?photo=70174&title=valve-wearwithin-limit-of-1-3mm&cat=500

Valve wear is within tolerance, but this is a performance upgrade so, I'm thinking I'm not overly keen and might change the valve guides. It would be £90 well spent. Opinions welcome...

http://pics.tdiclub.com/showphoto.php?photo=70175&title=stripped-head-with-vnt-to-go&cat=500

Head stripped before cleaning.

Exhaust valve guide wear about double of the inlets (as expected I guess) and within limits, but as this is a performance upgrade, I think I'm as well replacing the guides.

I thought that all TDi's of this age (5 cylinder AAT/AEL and 4 cylinder 1Z etc) were double valve springs. EKTA says there are and when I check in ELSAwin, the illustration is for inner and outer springs, however, I've only got the outers when I stripped my head down? Why would that be?

Is this the reason that it's been smoke fest after 3krpm? Worn guides/weak (or missing) springs?

I had double valve springs (on the AAT)
You have some room for the CAI and turbo but calculate careful (I fitted the 2260vk in there without touching any heavy duty tool).

Leo__ said:

I had double valve springs (on the AAT)
You have some room for the CAI and turbo but calculate careful (I fitted the 2260vk in there without touching any heavy duty tool).

Click to expand...

Thanks Leo, everything I see tells me that there should be double springs and you've just confirmed it. I'm going to order up a full set from Audi and change the guides while I'm at it too.

I'll need to see if there are any BTDT on porting the TDI head. The 4 cyl will be the same as the 5 cyl bar one. I don't intend to do anything drastic, but I want to avoid making any mistakes. The inlet port looks very much designed to induce swirl into the combustion chamber and I want only to improve that if I can.

At least I'm now getting on with it now

MarkoP over in Finland knows his way around porting the 5-cylinder TDI heads as well as anyone here.

Well... it's been a month since I last posted and while I'm not as far on as I'd like, I am at least making progress - I blame my 7 year old getting his dad into BMX, again!


Well, the IM was slit and opened up and the EGR inlet that is visible at the IM mouth was welded up and port matched to the inlet adaptor. The plenum and inlet runners were cleaned up. Then the IM was welded back together. Doesn't look as though it's been touched from the outside.

http://pics.tdiclub.com/showphoto.php?photo=71168&title=21112010-015&cat=500

http://pics.tdiclub.com/showphoto.php?photo=71169&title=21112010-018&cat=500

http://pics.tdiclub.com/showphoto.php?photo=71167&title=21112010-013&cat=500

http://pics.tdiclub.com/showphoto.php?photo=71172&title=21112010-027&cat=500

The IM was dowelled to the head so that the gasket would always be in alignment and not impede airflow and the port were cleaned up and the valve seat ridge was blended into the port on both inlet and exhaust. The EM collector was cleaned up and ports from head to EM were matched.

http://pics.tdiclub.com/showphoto.php?photo=71164&title=21112010-009&cat=500

http://pics.tdiclub.com/showphoto.php?photo=71173&title=21112010-028&cat=500

http://pics.tdiclub.com/showphoto.php?photo=71171&title=21112010-024&cat=500

Head was rebuilt with the correct OEM double valve springs and OEM valve stems seals. I never changed the guides afterall as they were well within tolerance and the only reliable source was OEM @ £200ish...

The cam was set and the head was ready to go. The ARP headstuds were then fitted and the head torqued up in three stages, left for a couple of hours and then retorqued.

Next up is

Turbine V band adaptor and EM to turbine inlet.
Oil inlet and outlet adaptors once the turbo is in position
3" DP with CAT bypass
FMIC

Some of the aftermarket IC have good cores but not so good inlet and outlets. I haven't quite decided if I'm going to redo the endtanks. I'll see how much time and inclination I have. The whole idea being to minimise the pressure loss and flow resistance across the whole inlet and exhaust path where possible.

If it works well and I can get someone to remap the ECU with confidence, then I'll go with bigger injectors. Right now I've had new .216s fitted and tested, so I'll go with them first and then DSS2's if it turns out well.

On the run in to the finish for the fabrication stuff, so I just need to keep going...

oh and a fair bit of reclocking on the 2056 to get reasonable positioning by the looks of it...

Need to have a search on BTDTs

so nice to see you are making progress... beautiful thing keeping the 5cyl alive
do you have any hp target? any estimations?
great work and keep us posted... have fun

Hopefully around 210-220bhp on the standard nozzles and then if the tuner has confidence I'll swap to DSS or DSS2 and see how it goes. Would hope to see 250-270 with the bigger nozzles if I'm lucky but I guess the 2056 is a bit of an unknown on the 5 cylinder.

I'll just be glad to get it back together before the snow comes...

raymor said:

I'll just be glad to get it back together before the snow comes...

Click to expand...

I can feel your pain