Cam shaft wear

I replaced a cam shaft and lifters about 50.000 miles ago. Some lobes are already shoving some wear.
Is there some oil additive to raise the viscosity? Will it help if I shorten the intervals between oil changes?

It has been said that once it starts it happens quickly. There are many posts here though on the oils people are using.

What oil were you using after the replacement?
Did you replace the camshaft bearings too?
Did you do any special break-in procedure (for example RPM @2000 for 20 mins or so)?
Did you use any additives during or after break-in?

tpavlusik said:

I replaced a cam shaft and lifters about 50.000 miles ago. Some lobes are already shoving some wear.
Is there some oil additive to raise the viscosity? Will it help if I shorten the intervals between oil changes?

Click to expand...

Sorry about your failure

There are all sorts of things that can go wrong and influences that cause failure. Break-in depends on follower type. Mileage suggests how much head fretting you had in the cam bearing bore. Reading shows you have a BRM.

How many miles does the car have on it?
Which brand cam did you use?
Which engine model cam did you use?
What color followers did you use?
Did you use all black followers?
Who did the Cam and follower change?
Describe the break-in process you used.
Do you have pictures of the first cam failure or did you save the parts?
Can you get us pictures of the present cam lobes?


Then:
If you address the cam bearing cantilever issues: It is summer so I suggest Mobil 1 15W-50 or a mix of 15W-50 and TDT 5W-40. IMHO

Running the heavier oil I suggest 5,000 miles US OCI. You will have a heavy enough oil to not need 10,000 mile US OCIs. The shorter OCI will flush wear particles. IMHO

There are a least 15 problems with PD design. Do you want to know the 4 or so things you need to do?

eddif

I bought all the parts from TDI store from MA. As far as I can say all parts were OE. I am buyng oil from my VW dealer. No additives.
Break in, I can not say.
The question is what can be done now. If anything.
Can the lobes be repolished? Maybe replace the lifters if needed.
I hear that one of the members here is cutting little chanels so that more oil is getting where needed. If that could be the solution, can it be done with the head still in the vehicle?
I will try to post the pictures this afternoon.

tpavlusik said:

I bought all the parts from TDI store from MA. As far as I can say all parts were OE. I am buyng oil from my VW dealer. No additives.
Break in, I can not say.
The question is what can be done now. If anything.
Can the lobes be repolished? Maybe replace the lifters if needed.
I hear that one of the members here is cutting little chanels so that more oil is getting where needed. If that could be the solution, can it be done with the head still in the vehicle?
I will try to post the pictures this afternoon.

Click to expand...

To answer your questions we need all the information we asked for. Each car is individual. Which engine it has, which followers it has (they can be original plain and black mix or all black, and that makes a difference).

After we know just what went on, it will be possible to help more. Sorry if it seems to be a lot of questions. There are a lot of contributing factors in the failures.

Some of the vocal people support the Franko6 bearings. I do not due to photos from black knight
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=253137&page=14
posts 202 &209 have to have photos blown up to view but show what I consider to be bad wear. anew (modern) bearing study supports not putting radial grooves (like radial tire wires) on certain bearing areas. See this link.
http://www.epi-eng.com/piston_engine...e_bearings.htm
Of Course, others do not support the eddif monologue cam bearing wear and oiling thread. You will have to decide on what to do.

The most radical thought I have (totally unproven and untested) is that the black followers are possibly covered with hard carbon. If the followers are covered with hard carbon there might (still untested) be a chance of puttiing a new black follower on a used cam lobe. The lobe would need to be in good shape and might require 15W-50 oil in conjunction to cantilever force reducing eddif design bearings.

I put NACA design holes / slots on bearings and have a set in my car now. We are about to 1,000 miles US and should be showing their wear pattern. Give me a week or so and I should have them out and take pictures. I may just put them back and give them more time to wear.

eddif

From BK's photos, the modded half-shells didn't seem to do anything for the other half, the one that actually bears the load from the injector rockers, which still wore badly. Real bad, in fact. Copper showing in 5000 miles.

This thing will not let me post any pictures.
To answer your questions. I really do not remember what kind of lifters I used. I did not imagine that Germans would produce a car or more specifically an engine that had this king of problems. Cam shaft and lifters are essential to the performance and durability of each engine.
But plain talk aside.
Two lobes are showing a slight wear on the top of the lobe, which should not happen, but I can understand it. Two lobes are showing some wear before the top of the lobe and the exhaust lobe on second cylinder is most disturbing. In my opinion if this kind of wear starts, there is no stoping it.
What should I do next. drive this thing until it completely breaks down? Can this cause any additional damage?
Should I monitor it every oil change?
And most importantly, when the time comes next, how I should approach this repair andwhat should be installed.
Thanks for your imput.

For what it's worth, I have 281,000 km on original camshaft and lifters in a P-D engine.

IF you have the unfortunate situation of having to do this again ...

Replace the camshaft and the lifters as a matched set. Consider using the Colt Cams aftermarket camshaft (search forums) as there is some evidence that they have identified an improvement in the way the camshaft moves the valves off their seats.

Ensure that proper assembly lube is used on all the cam lobes prior to camshaft installation.

Before starting the engine after the camshaft replacement, drain the oil and filter, and refill with something like Joe Gibb's break-in oil (ask at your local hot-rodder's shop). Start the engine and run it at 2000 rpm for 20 minutes. I'd leave that oil in there for a couple thousand kilometers but not for a full oil change interval.

Buying oil from the local VW shop does not guarantee that you are getting the correct oil.

For subsequent oil changes, use Mobil 1 Turbo Diesel Truck 5w40 and a half-dose of ZDDPlus additive. (ZDDP is an extreme pressure additive commonly used in motor oil for protecting flat-tappet lifters.) Again, ask at your local hot-rodder's shop (or buy over the internet).

We may all need to be shot at dawn.

As far as I know (the older I get the less I know):

The silver followers are sensitive to ZDDP and break-in.

The Black Followers are less sensitive to break in and can be run at idle speeds to break-in.

How you break-in a mixed set is beyond me.

ZDDP needs metal contact to smooth down the deposited layer (deposited by heat and pressure).

I personally believe (that sure ain't held to be worth much around here at times) that the Black coating seems not to get coated by ZDDP, and being super slick I do not know if it needs as much ZDDP. I would doubt the black followers smooth the ZDDP very much. And, I think ZDDP is a danger to cam bearings when copper is showing and WOT running conditions are seen.

eddif

tpavlusik said:

This thing will not let me post any pictures.
To answer your questions. I really do not remember what kind of lifters I used. I did not imagine that Germans would produce a car or more specifically an engine that had this king of problems. Cam shaft and lifters are essential to the performance and durability of each engine.
But plain talk aside.
Two lobes are showing a slight wear on the top of the lobe, which should not happen, but I can understand it. Two lobes are showing some wear before the top of the lobe and the exhaust lobe on second cylinder is most disturbing. In my opinion if this kind of wear starts, there is no stoping it.
What should I do next. drive this thing until it completely breaks down? Can this cause any additional damage?
Should I monitor it every oil change?
And most importantly, when the time comes next, how I should approach this repair andwhat should be installed.
Thanks for your imput.

Click to expand...

After you establish a picture post account and have the pictures in the correct format it goes pretty well. At first I thought I would never get one to work.

The engines originally had the cams pushed up into nice wide cam bearings and the lobes were wider. Then they added the cam driven injection system. This system overpowers the valve springs and forces the cam down on poorly supported lower cam bearings that have cantilever problems. Not only that but they narrowed the cam lobes to have room to put in the injection rockers. And even on top of that the slick new black followers seem to be brittle and fracture more easily.

Some engines still manage to see fairly high miles. Some fail at about 100,000 miles US. Mine was about to fail at 107,000 miles US and a cam bearing change helped the cam slick back up and go on. I am now at about 130,000 miles US and at last inspection was still slick. I lost a heater hose and warmed things up a little and it still went on (thanks to the folks here I got a part # and went on.

Driving till failure just fills the engine with wear particles IMHO especially the oil pump.

Then we just do not agree on everything. That is probably ok if you can make a decision that works for you.

eddif

GoFaster, one of the reasons you don't have a cam failure might be the fact that you live in Canada: better quality diesel fuel, lower ambient temps there.

eddif, why do you still think someone would bother using mixed sets of followers during the replacement? Also, the chrome ones are not obtainable (by the dealership) anymore

hid3 said:

GoFaster, one of the reasons you don't have a cam failure might be the fact that you live in Canada: better quality diesel fuel, lower ambient temps there.

eddif, why do you still think someone would bother using mixed sets of followers during the replacement? Also, the chrome ones are not obtainable (by the dealership) anymore

Click to expand...

I really have developed a theory about our area and cam failure. I have not shared it with anyone yet. I could spend hours trying to make it sound better but that would just be for my ego. Where I live there are probably only 50 days during the year when you can not apply almost the maximum HP the VW PD will make. After about 9:00 AM the roads are dry and you are in 2nd or above you can give the car all the pedal the electronics can supply. You can max out the RPM over and over with WOT. You probably have to back off 20 % of the time from tire spin. You cam gp just as fast as you can pay tickets for. Here you can do max pedal, RPM and WOT most of the time. That is when you are making 26.000 psi in the injection system. The cam is slammed into the bearings the temps are up in the cam due to cam bearing friction, and the 5W-30 oil is tried to its maximum.

By contrast the North is frozen a lot of the year and the roads will not allow maximum WOT high RPM runs 80% of the time. Stop screaming. You can do a lot of high RPM runs. but ice will not allow the WOT 26,000 psi runs till the roads thaw and dry for a precious 3 hour period during the day (?). Yes you are in a car with high RPMs but you are featherijng the throttle a large portion of the time (compared with the South). Although you are up to operating temperature you have much more opportunity to cool the engine. Do some folks run studs in the ice and hook up? Yes.

I stated the extremes of both areas. There are times in the South when just after a shower the road is so slick you can use only part throttle. There are times during thaw, in the North, when you can flog away. Total WOT is different from area to area and driver use of that WOT differs. WOT, tires hooked up, 26,000 psi injection for 25 seconds times are rare for some folks, but then where you are plays a part in this story, and the final mileage you are able to have.

Why would you use a mixed follower set? Well VW did it! If VW did it it must be right. Why would you question the stock use of mixed lifters. You know if VW did it it must be right LOL. VW had us all running around using their oil for a long time too. Another LOL.

Seriously the plain silver original PD follower seems the best for drag raing situations (with cam bearing work). The black followers seem the best for just the right no valve float person.

Who knows if the silver top follower you get today is the same ones you got in the original BEW? It may only be aftermarket and not be the same composition. I haven't tried to get any silver ones from VW.

Who knows if the black followers you get today are the same brittle composition you got when they first came out?

eddif

eddif, the main population in Canada lives in areas that are nowhere near as "icy" as you seem to think. And it's got nothing to do with foot-to-the-floor driving. We both have speed limits and police that will take care of that. Normal motorway speed is 120-ish km/h, not much different from 75 mph ...

Granted, on a yearly average, the ambient temperatures here are certainly lower than in the southern USA and the maximum temperature reached during the year is generally lower and for nowhere near as many days of the year. That generally means lower oil temperature, and that means a given engine oil will be at a higher absolute viscosity at the actual running temperature of the engine.

Hence ... the recommendation for that specific engine oil. A "40" weight oil isn't a specific viscosity, it is in a certain range. Mobil 1 TDT is towards the higher (thicker) end of the allowable range. Most of the 5w40 505.01 oils are towards the thinner end of that range. As for the Xw30 oils that claim 505.01 compliance (and which many VW dealers may use nowadays) ... don't even go there!

ZDDP in concentrations within the normal range found in motor oil does not damage journal bearings. It has no effect on journal bearings. Its function is at the cam/lifter sliding interface.

For the southern USA folks, a supplementary engine oil cooler may do a ton more benefit than all of this mucking around with cam bearings and extra lubrication holes.

(by the way, I'm at 281,000 km on the original cam bearings, too.)

GoFaster said:

eddif, the main population in Canada lives in areas that are nowhere near as "icy" as you seem to think. And it's got nothing to do with foot-to-the-floor driving. We both have speed limits and police that will take care of that. Normal motorway speed is 120-ish km/h, not much different from 75 mph ...

Granted, on a yearly average, the ambient temperatures here are certainly lower than in the southern USA and the maximum temperature reached during the year is generally lower and for nowhere near as many days of the year. That generally means lower oil temperature, and that means a given engine oil will be at a higher absolute viscosity at the actual running temperature of the engine.

Hence ... the recommendation for that specific engine oil. A "40" weight oil isn't a specific viscosity, it is in a certain range. Mobil 1 TDT is towards the higher (thicker) end of the allowable range. Most of the 5w40 505.01 oils are towards the thinner end of that range. As for the Xw30 oils that claim 505.01 compliance (and which many VW dealers may use nowadays) ... don't even go there!

ZDDP in concentrations within the normal range found in motor oil does not damage journal bearings. It has no effect on journal bearings. Its function is at the cam/lifter sliding interface.

For the southern USA folks, a supplementary engine oil cooler may do a ton more benefit than all of this mucking around with cam bearings and extra lubrication holes.

(by the way, I'm at 281,000 km on the original cam bearings, too.)

Click to expand...

I hate to jump into these endless threads on camshafts, but I highlighted the phrase above because I believe that ambient temperature has no effect on oil viscosity once the engine is up to normal operating temperatue, which is controlled by the thermostat/cooling system. Correct me if I am wrong please.

aja8888 said:

I hate to jump into these endless threads on camshafts, but I highlighted the phrase above because I believe that ambient temperature has no effect on oil viscosity once the engine is up to normal operating temperatue, which is controlled by the thermostat/cooling system. Correct me if I am wrong please.

Click to expand...

If the cams would stop failing, the discussion would cease. I am as tired as anyone on discussing the failures, but they happen and we can help out through discussion.

Stuck in traffic, in the tropics, with the air conditioning on, at 105 F is a little different than 32 F with a heater on. The last time I noticed people run different oils based on location / climate. VW however has decided that 5W-30 is the right oil for the sub-tropics in NA.

Five full size people in a car with a luggage rack headed up a 5% grade in 105 F weather stresses things too. 5W-30 approved oil?

All so sad.

eddif

I run Mobil 1 TDT with two ounces of ZDDP+ (Yummy stuff). No issues with cam at 93K, but then again, I have a BHW.

My engine operating temp seems to be consistant when the engine is at normal operating temp. CharlieT's BHW cam was eaten at 100K (or sooner), due to what he thinks was inappropriate oil use by the previous owner(s).

I am wondering if anyone has tried the TX7 additive in there oil. With everyone talking about cam wear I would think you guys would be using additive or something. I used it in my F-250 and my Expedition with no problems.

Lonnie

aja, you're wrong. Oil temperature in fact is influenced by ambient temperature.

In ideal condition, oil temperature should be equal to coolant temperature. Subtract these two and the delta you get is the engine load.

Coolant runs hotter in summer and that's what cools the oil as well.

my car has 110k on it and i have ran nothing but amsoil, not one issue with the camshaft. My mom has the same car and used mobil one and has had two camshaft's replaced with only 89k.....food for thought

Here's more food for thought:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBGaqLQBnUM

Diesel pwr said:

My mom has the same car and used mobil one and has had two camshaft's replaced with only 89k.....food for thought

Click to expand...

Unapproved for 505.01?
Also in wrong viscosity?

aja8888 said:

I hate to jump into these endless threads on camshafts, but I highlighted the phrase above because I believe that ambient temperature has no effect on oil viscosity once the engine is up to normal operating temperatue, which is controlled by the thermostat/cooling system. Correct me if I am wrong please.

Click to expand...

Correct. BUT. The thermostat is not a precise means of control, and although the temperature gauge on your instrument panel suggests that the coolant temperature is rock solid 90 C all the time, that's not true. The temp gauge has an intentional deadband in it to stop people from coming back with complaints "My temperature gauge is varying ...". Indicated 90 C on the gauge means anywhere between about 75 and 100 C. It varies with ambient temperature and engine load, etc.

Diesel pwr said:

my car has 110k on it and i have ran nothing but amsoil, not one issue with the camshaft. My mom has the same car and used mobil one and has had two camshaft's replaced with only 89k.....food for thought

Click to expand...

Which type of Mobil 1 ...

Also, there does seem to be an element of luck involved. Perhaps some camshafts and lifters are "good" and the occasional one is "bad". Sample sizes of one don't give a good statistical indication of ANYthing.

I am conducting my own experiments using 2ozs. of ZDDP at the OCI.

Of course I am still using my crappy 506 0-30w Elf CRV at 15000mile interval. Still all OEM at 110000miles.

I have my wifes car using S9000 and 2 oz of ZDDP...At 73000miles.

I will let you guys know when they fail...

Mach1 said:

I am conducting my own experiments using 2ozs. of ZDDP at the OCI.

Of course I am still using my crappy 506 0-30w Elf CRV at 15000mile interval. Still all OEM at 110000miles.

I have my wifes car using S9000 and 2 oz of ZDDP...At 73000miles.

I will let you guys know when they fail...

Click to expand...

Interested in your experiment. But I have a question here:

Do you top up at least a drop of oil between OCI? If yes, then do you pour in some more ZDDP after that? Or do you blend 2oz of ZDDP with 5 L oil in jug before pouring it in?


FYI, 506.01 are rich(er) in Zn/P by themselves. Have you done any VOA/UOAs for this oil? Would be interesing to see!

And.. Your cams won't fail!

Hid, good questions, I am using oil, as I have the CCV mod done to mine, and that leads me into the next answer, yes, I start off with an abundant amount of ZN/PH buts it gets depleted between the adding of the oil and use of the oil. 506 oil is ester base as well, group V, I believe.

I did the whole thing on the OA, last one I had showed ZN/PH levels right under 2000ppm after 15000miles. I split a 4oz container between the 2 engines.

Dont get me wrong, I have superficel surface wear and even a little rotator wear, I expect to replace the cams someday. But if I can extend the range of them..well thats the idea. I still have the side camber shoulder.

I know one guy that just did his cam @350000miles, if I can get anywhere close to that, then i will be pleased. Or you can stick with the 505.01 oil.

Trying to extract useful information from these threads is time consuming and frustrating...but the one thing that everyone seems to agree on is that using oil from the dealer is signing yourself up for cam problems.

I've been running LubroMoly 5-40 505.01 for the last couple changes. Before that (and before I familiarized myself with these threads) I used the dealer supplied oil. My cam was inspected with the help of DanG at 100k and both it and the lifters looked like new.

There are people running hard with tunes that have cams in great shape, there are other people who baby them for economy without tunes and their cams are trashed. It's a VW issued lottery ticket.

Since you're in Charlotte I would get in touch with Landon or Dan if you think it's time to change a cam again. They're both pretty close to you-

GoFaster said:

Correct. BUT. The thermostat is not a precise means of control, and although the temperature gauge on your instrument panel suggests that the coolant temperature is rock solid 90 C all the time, that's not true. The temp gauge has an intentional deadband in it to stop people from coming back with complaints "My temperature gauge is varying ...". Indicated 90 C on the gauge means anywhere between about 75 and 100 C. It varies with ambient temperature and engine load, etc.

Click to expand...

according to scanguage my temp is actually quite solid, 191 degrees F, sometimes it'll hop up to 193 but usually back down once I get moving or off a mountain climb