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Fuels & Lubricants Discussion all about Fuels & Lubricants. synthetic oil, conventional oil, brands, change intervals, diesel grades, gelling and such debated items like that. Non TDI related postings will be moved or removed. This forum is NOT for the discussion of biodiesel and other alternative fuels.

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Old June 6th, 2010, 08:13   #16
danham
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Politics, sex, motor oil: the three topics most likely to yield nonsense and bad advice on the Interwebs? [g]

Just a quick comment: "detergent" oil does not, contrary to popular belief, contain dishwashing soap or the equivalent [g]. It does not "wash" anything. Instead it holds dirt particles in suspension, which is why it gets darker in color faster than non-detergent oil (if you can even find such a thing these days), which lets the particles settle out.

-dan
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Old June 6th, 2010, 08:19   #17
Drivbiwire
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue02JettaTDI
I do 5-6k oil changes. Theyre cheap and easy to do.
And three times the wear rates on a car that cannot afford them.

The owners whos PD's I tend to, are trying to recover the money they put into the car as a result of incorrect oil usage. Now that the motors are running properly and wear has been eliminated as a future issue we are doing what we can to reduce the wear and maximize the life of the engines.

They like the fact that they can safely run 15,000 plus miles between changes and have wear rates that are so low that even they see a need to go to 20K. Of course this is backed up by an occasional oil sample (not every time) but typically every 3rd to 4th oil change. This only serves to validate our oil change intervals.

Running a PD motor in a perpetial state of detergency has got to be the worst thing you can do to these motors. You want to allow the dispersants to do the job of keeping an engine clean and not continually flush it with detergants. Ever look at the hands of somebody with OCD, not pretty now imagine what is going on in your motor. By changing every 5K the additives have just started to stabilize and now you dump the oil and spike the detergants again? Not a smart thing to do no matter how cheap and easy that oil change may be.

You know what is cheaper and easier? Leaving the correct oil in the motor and going 15K, lower wear, higher reliability and less work and money.

Of course if you want to throw money away and increase wear by all means there are plenty of us standing by ready to rebuild the head on your PD motor and serve you with a bill for around $2000 depending on the extent of the damage you did.
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Last edited by Drivbiwire; June 6th, 2010 at 08:23.
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Old June 6th, 2010, 08:46   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danham
Politics, sex, motor oil: the three topics most likely to yield nonsense and bad advice on the Interwebs? [g]

Just a quick comment: "detergent" oil does not, contrary to popular belief, contain dishwashing soap or the equivalent [g]. It does not "wash" anything. Instead it holds dirt particles in suspension, which is why it gets darker in color faster than non-detergent oil (if you can even find such a thing these days), which lets the particles settle out.

-dan
Detergents and dispersents in the context of oils should not be completely lumped in together especially with long drain oils.

Detergents have a much shorter life cycle and evaporate early in the oils life ie 1000-3000 miles. These simply remove formations left over from the previous oil change and pull them into suspension where the dispersents take over and prevent them from rebonding with the engines surfaces.

The reason for a short life of detergency is that it reduces the ability of EP (Extreme Pressure) additives from bonding with the metal surfaces. EP additives are what protect the critical areas that do not rely on boundary layer lubrication ie lifters, pistons skirts, rings etc.

The dispersents live on for the life of the oil and prevent clumping of soot, and retain combustion by-products in suspension in the oil without permitting them to adhere to the inside of the motor. The bigger advantage to dispersents is that they do not prevent the EP additives from bonding to the engines high pressure regions which is critical in achieving the performance required of extended drain oils. Dispersent effectiveness is generally tested using soot loading tests where the concentration of soot is increased to around 8-9% then the engine is run of for 500 hours to see if there is any adverse wear. Dispersents are also the reason why soot remains "dispersed" in the oil and prevents clumping that can result in conglomerated particles large enough to cause damage to the high pressure regions of the motor.

You can to a limited extent lump the two into the same category, however only one remains effective after the initial 1000-3000 miles that being the dispersents.
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Last edited by Drivbiwire; June 6th, 2010 at 08:55.
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Old June 6th, 2010, 09:25   #19
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Good info and an important distinction - thanks!

-dan
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Old June 6th, 2010, 11:54   #20
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I am sorry, but I do not buy the fact that changing an oil in a PD every 5K is going to cause a worn out cam. Will you be wasting oil? Probably. Will it result in slightly higher engine wear? Maybe. Will it cause extreme engine damage? I say impossible.
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Old June 6th, 2010, 12:04   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VWBeamer
I jut a 2004 Tdi, the previous owner did a 5K miles OCI using Rotella synthetic oil.

Car has 77K on it now, think all the detergent has harmed the motor?
Certainly this procedure has increased the chances. Is it an absolute certainty? Absolutely NOT !! I think you might put your mind to rest or buck up for the inevitable by asking a guru to put the good eye on your particular vehicle (pop the valve cover and inspect the camshaft etc.) If you dont have any issues, motor on!! Then for sure switch to M1 TDT 5w40. If you have issues then you can proactivately plan what to do and ....when.

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Old June 6th, 2010, 12:53   #22
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I'm not 100% sure if my case is the reason, but the previous owner did OCI's every 5-6k per "the dealer" until i bought it w/ 183k. Now at 217k, a compression test yielded very low compression (barely w/in spec). I would say it's plausible that the shorter OCI's caused faster wear of the piston rings than normal. Not to mention, after 50k miles if you change every 5k you've paid for 5 extra oil changes.
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Old June 6th, 2010, 13:03   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turbocharged798
I am sorry, but I do not buy the fact that changing an oil in a PD every 5K is going to cause a worn out cam. Will you be wasting oil? Probably. Will it result in slightly higher engine wear? Maybe. Will it cause extreme engine damage? I say impossible.
Can somebody tell me why its of any benefit to change an oil early, and don't tell me because it looks dirty either.

Give me actual data based on oxidation, wear metal content and size, soot content and %, TBN, viscosity break down...Name one reason to change an oil earlier than 10K.

I can say this with ULSD even 10K is a waste of time since the TBN reserve easily accomodates a 15-20K interval without risk of acid formation.

Below and FWIW are actual wear metals (20ppm fe) in a 10K sample showing the particle size to be less than 1 micron in size. The particles are aligned due to a magnetic field on a glass plate. This size range of wear metal is too small to cause any abnormal wear in any motor and harmlessly circulates inside the motor due to dispersents that prevent them from conglomerating.


So again show me one data point that indicates why an oil needs changing.
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Old June 6th, 2010, 13:06   #24
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5K oil changes won't hurt anything. it's just wasteful , that's all.

the PD fiasco seems to have few variables.. questionable engine design , mediocre ( 505.01 ) oils and incorrectly manufactured parts.
there are all to blame
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Old June 6th, 2010, 13:15   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dimitri16V
5K oil changes won't hurt anything. it's just wasteful , that's all.

the PD fiasco seems to have few variables.. questionable engine design , mediocre ( 505.01 ) oils and incorrectly manufactured parts.
there are all to blame
Well no, it is just what ACTUALLY HURTS is not statistically significant enough to cause repair. This is of course what the qwikie lubes depend on. I agree it is (more than) wasteful. Again ANY lubrication used in the PD engine or any other for that matter will not take a hit in many successful lawsuits !!

So for example it has been shown beyond doubt (SAE oil study) that new oil (ZERO to 3,000 miles) has THE most aggressive wear patterns. Over that to 15,000 miles (they did not run the test beyond 15,000 miles) the wear patterns are SIGNIFICANTLY less.

So again the real question is does it statistically make a difference ie causing premature REPAIR, and of course the answer is a resounding NO !!!!

So for example if I ran 3,000 to 5,000 OCI's on my 03 TDI (non PD), there is no doubt in my mind it would be running as flawlessly as it is @ 137,000 miles. For the record, I have been running 20,000 to 25,000 miles OCI's and it still runs ... flawlessly. But as the saying goes, why change oil 6 times (25,000 miles) when 46 times (3,000 miles) will do ?????

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Old June 6th, 2010, 15:00   #26
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Quote:
Can somebody tell me why its of any benefit to change an oil early, and don't tell me because it looks dirty either.
Never said that it was a good idea to change it every 5K as there clearly is no benefit. I was just pointing out that changing at every 5K will NOT (IMO) cause engine damage.
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Old June 6th, 2010, 15:02   #27
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Never mind the increased wear, what is the benefit of changing oil every 5K nobody can ever seem to answer that!
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Old June 6th, 2010, 16:25   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drivbiwire
Can somebody tell me why its of any benefit to change an oil early, and don't tell me because it looks dirty either.

Give me actual data based on oxidation, wear metal content and size, soot content and %, TBN, viscosity break down...Name one reason to change an oil earlier than 10K.

I can say this with ULSD even 10K is a waste of time since the TBN reserve easily accomodates a 15-20K interval without risk of acid formation.

Below and FWIW are actual wear metals (20ppm fe) in a 10K sample showing the particle size to be less than 1 micron in size. The particles are aligned due to a magnetic field on a glass plate. This size range of wear metal is too small to cause any abnormal wear in any motor and harmlessly circulates inside the motor due to dispersents that prevent them from conglomerating.


So again show me one data point that indicates why an oil needs changing.
I brag on someone then fuss. I guess it is ok in some cases. There are times when I need to be fussed at and hopefully it does some good.

OA proves everything you say (if OA is always correct as currently used). Some of your physical and chemical law examples are correct. Then why would I even comment?

Here is your statement I would like to comment on.
"Below and FWIW are actual wear metals (20ppm fe) in a 10K sample showing the particle size to be less than 1 micron in size. The particles are aligned due to a magnetic field on a glass plate. This size range of wear metal is too small to cause any abnormal wear in any motor and harmlessly circulates inside the motor due to dispersents that prevent them from conglomerating."

Your comment is probably good for 80% of the engines on the road. It is even probably ok for 50% of the PDs 80% of the time. For a PD run in some conditions it just will not work. When the viscosity of the oil is low and the loading is high the poor cam bearing support causes metal to metal (cam journal to cam bearing material) contact to take place. There is just not enough support area for VW approved 5W-40 oil to cause those wear particles to harmlessly go through the cam bearings. The hydrodynamic film is too thin for what is going on. By the same token the narrowed cam lobes and the follower interface point is stressed to the extent that with poor oiling and low viscosity contact must occur in the BEW. The lobe contact is not as critical with black followers (if you can keep the black followers from fracturing).

The other oils (other than VW approved) tend to have a little higher viscosity.

I say listen to Drivbiwire as far as chemistry goes, but do not discount the fact that there are cars out there that live long lives on 15W-40 oil. If you deal with the cantilever forces in the end cam bearings I really think 10W-50 oil would help the sub-tropic cars.

Can I be off? Sure. When I get these present bearings tested, I will be testing 15W-50 oil to see what it does to cam bearing and lobe wear. If the turbo blows or the base circle side of the lobes fail I will have to just suck it up and go on. It is encouraging to hear the 15W-40 oil seems not to kill engines on the first oil change. I walked out and checked the mileage, it is 138,000 miles US plus. The car has the original 2004 cam and followers and had 34 different cam bearings in it. It has survived a little trash and my mechanic work by Grace. I think I have done the bearings (some partial sets) 10 different times. I will choose the bearings based on the test bearing history. I may even put some old bearings in just to quit buying bearings. I probably ruined 8 or so bearings with machine work mistakes.

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Old June 6th, 2010, 16:52   #29
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15w40, will it protect a PD more than likely YES.

BUT....

It had better be a SYNTHETIC 15w40 to handle the high temperature regions of the motor. Of course if you are running a 15w40 why not run a top tier 5w40 aka D1, TDT, Rotella T6 etc and get the best of both worlds?

I think we are saying the same thing, a PD is all about viscosity. Those cam bearings NEED a heavier duty oil. This 5w30 stuff is for the birds and I personally do not like them nor do I recomend them in any PD engine. I even steer clear of them on the CR motors and run the MB 5w40 ESP version (507.00 be damned), I like the 229.51 in the case of the VW CR-TDI and use the MB approved 5w40 ESP vs the thinner 5w30 VW-507.00. In my opinion, diesels with their aggressive cams should never run any version of an Xw30 and even in some cases a thinner 5w40 may be too thin.

Would I have an issue supporting a synthetic 15w40, provided the engine is not run in a cold climate but instead Miami or Dallas in the summer, sure use it and I suspect the wear would be every bit as good as a good 5w40.

Also another thing worth noting is the HTHS of these oils. How do they hold up when you really put the heat to them? Review the specs at 150C and compare those values.
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Old June 6th, 2010, 17:20   #30
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The biggest problem with extended oil changes is not the oil but the carbon and condensation. The oil filter becomes plugged with carbon the builds up after time and that time is based on your driving style. If you do a lot of short trips you should change oil more often because of the condensation build up in the engine.
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