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TDI Power Enhancements Discussions about increasing the power of your TDI engine. i.e. chips, injectors, powerboxes, clutches, etc. Handling, suspensions, wheels, type discussion should be put into the "Upgrades (non TDI Engine related)" forum. Non TDI vehicle related postings will be moved or removed. Please note the Performance Disclaimer.

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Old March 9th, 2010, 18:17   #1
keaton
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Default DIY ECU tuning?

so I'm new here, i have just been reading and poking around in my free time for several months....

i was wondering what the TDI market is like for the DIY tuner?
from my understanding, from vag-com's website it does not do ECU flashing/reprogramming...

i don't own a TDI yet, but when i sell my BMW I'm going to get one.
before i bought my BMW i started learning/decoding the OEM ECU (chip tuning blows) but figured out my BMW's DME as well as the next generation of motor after mine. the biggest problem in that battle was the market was so tight on information that people who knew stuff didn't want to help and if they did help it wasn't much..... so needless to say after i figured it out i handed out a lot of information to help the DIY'ers. from NA tunes to FI tunes, MAF rescaling, injector scaling, load rescaling, and also helped with remote tunes. pissed off pro tuners
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Old March 9th, 2010, 19:54   #2
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The TDI tuning market isn't much different. There is a lot of information out there if you want to do a very basic tune, but most of the people who know a thing of two more than the basics tend to keep their mouths shut.
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Old March 9th, 2010, 20:16   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vwmikel
The TDI tuning market isn't much different. There is a lot of information out there if you want to do a very basic tune, but most of the people who know a thing of two more than the basics tend to keep their mouths shut.


where is a good place to start reading?
do the post 1996 cars go through the OBD scan port, or is it going to be like OBD 1 chip tuning with EEPROM emulators (for easy tuning)?

so with software interface are you guys using to edit the maps? in a hex editor?

so what i'm thinking of getting a a ALH motor (1998-2003), i was thinking post 1999.5 so the car comes with a VGT

i see people doing MAF to MAP setups, whats the reason? if your doing a rescale of the MAF table why no use a bigger MAF?
does the computer have the code for running both MAP & MAF?? the e46 BMW computer has a software switch that allows the tuner to use either MAF or MAP... just different pins on the ECU and different formulas for calculating fuel, timing, etc.
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Old March 9th, 2010, 20:30   #4
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So you published a bunch of BMW tuning secrets and in doing so pissed off the professional tuners that refused to help you learn how to tune BMWs???

And now you want help to do the same to the professional TDI tuners?

I hope I read that wrong....

Bill
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Old March 9th, 2010, 20:36   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keaton


where is a good place to start reading?
do the post 1996 cars go through the OBD scan port, or is it going to be like OBD 1 chip tuning with EEPROM emulators (for easy tuning)?
The '96 Passats were actually OBD1 at first unless they got the TSB recall ECU. The OBD1 ECU is 8 bit and uses two DIL EPROMs. '97-'98 Passats and MK3's used OBD2 ECU's that used two PLCC32 EPROMs. These were 16 bit. Nothing is OBD flashable until 2000 model year.

Quote:
Originally Posted by keaton
so with software interface are you guys using to edit the maps? in a hex editor?
The software that people use varies, but you can bet that nobody is using a basic hex editor. I see that as being somewhat crude since you wouldn't have 2 and 3D mapping capabilities.

Quote:
Originally Posted by keaton
so what i'm thinking of getting a a ALH motor (1998-2003), i was thinking post 1999.5 so the car comes with a VGT
All US MK4's have VNT's. That includes '98 Beetles and '99.5 Golfs/Jettas.

Quote:
Originally Posted by keaton
i see people doing MAF to MAP setups, whats the reason? if your doing a rescale of the MAF table why no use a bigger MAF?
does the computer have the code for running both MAP & MAF?? the e46 BMW computer has a software switch that allows the tuner to use either MAF or MAP... just different pins on the ECU and different formulas for calculating fuel, timing, etc.
The primary purpose of the MAF on most TDI's is to control the EGR. It is also used for smoke limiting on US TDI's, but that can be switched to reference the MAP sensor. The technical term for this would be speed density.
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Old March 9th, 2010, 20:44   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 40X40
So you published a bunch of BMW tuning secrets and in doing so pissed off the professional tuners that refused to help you learn how to tune BMWs???

And now you want help to do the same to the professional TDI tuners?

I hope I read that wrong....

Bill
That is exactly the kind of thing that people are afraid of. Of course there is the obvious reasoning that they don't want to create a competitor, but a far worse scenario is the guy who knows just enough to be dangerous.

It is often that I get people asking a lot of questions, but the point I try to make is that learning to tune TDI's is not a way of saving money when tuning your own car. Just the time alone to learn enough to do a basic tune on your own car would make that prohibitive. What we charge really is cheap when you consider how much time we have into development and the money that we have into software and tooling.
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Old March 9th, 2010, 22:05   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 40X40
So you published a bunch of BMW tuning secrets and in doing so pissed off the professional tuners that refused to help you learn how to tune BMWs???

And now you want help to do the same to the professional TDI tuners?

I hope I read that wrong....

Bill
That was the end result, not the goal. There was a huge DIY calling and tuners raping the market $1200+per tune is too high, same price for a stand alone. Others were already trying it, I just happen to have a back ground in electrical engineering and software on embedded systems. Its not that big of a secret just knowing what to look for in the hexadecimal ...


Quote:
Originally Posted by vwmikel
The '96 Passats were actually OBD1 at first unless they got the TSB recall ECU. The OBD1 ECU is 8 bit and uses two DIL EPROMs. '97-'98 Passats and MK3's used OBD2 ECU's that used two PLCC32 EPROMs. These were 16 bit. Nothing is OBD flashable until 2000 model year.
1999.5+? I keep reading that a model to get for the golf /Jetta
Quote:
The software that people use varies, but you can bet that nobody is using a basic hex editor. I see that as being somewhat crude since you wouldn't have 2 and 3D mapping capabilities.
Winols and tunerpro rt do both. TunerPro RT also does real time tracking in the hex

Quote:
All US MK4's have VNT's. That includes '98 Beetles and '99.5 Golfs/Jettas.



The primary purpose of the MAF on most TDI's is to control the EGR. It is also used for smoke limiting on US TDI's, but that can be switched to reference the MAP sensor. The technical term for this would be speed density.
Yes I'm aware that its called speed density system. Is this a software switch or a MAF table rescale?
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Old March 9th, 2010, 22:19   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vwmikel
That is exactly the kind of thing that people are afraid of. Of course there is the obvious reasoning that they don't want to create a competitor, but a far worse scenario is the guy who knows just enough to be dangerous.
Not the goal to be a Pro tuner. just a DIY'er.

Quote:
It is often that I get people asking a lot of questions, but the point I try to make is that learning to tune TDI's is not a way of saving money when tuning your own car. Just the time alone to learn enough to do a basic tune on your own car would make that prohibitive. What we charge really is cheap when you consider how much time we have into development and the money that we have into software and tooling.
My time is free for my projects. You say its cheap for what I get, but if I want my tune tweeked to optimize my upgrades after everyone then that's a new tune...... diesel tuning is not that hard, go back to the cummins Gen 1/2 4bt/6bt no DME just a mechanical IP. More fuel = more power and higher egts, more air = lower egts. ...

I'm not new to diesel tuning, just new to diesels with a DME.
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Old March 10th, 2010, 00:50   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keaton
1999.5+? I keep reading that a model to get for the golf /Jetta
'99.5 Golfs/Jettas were MSA15.7 and not OBD flashable. '00-03 is EDC15V and OBD flashable.


Quote:
Originally Posted by keaton
Winols and tunerpro rt do both. TunerPro RT also does real time tracking in the hex
I use winols, but I don't think TunerPro will run a 16 bit emulator....at least not the last time I looked.

Quote:
Originally Posted by keaton
Yes I'm aware that its called speed density system. Is this a software switch or a MAF table rescale?
It's kind of both.

Quote:
Originally Posted by keaton
Not the goal to be a Pro tuner. just a DIY'er.
Neither was it for me.


Quote:
Originally Posted by keaton
My time is free for my projects. You say its cheap for what I get, but if I want my tune tweeked to optimize my upgrades after everyone then that's a new tune...... diesel tuning is not that hard, go back to the cummins Gen 1/2 4bt/6bt no DME just a mechanical IP. More fuel = more power and higher egts, more air = lower egts. ...

I'm not new to diesel tuning, just new to diesels with a DME.
I'm not sure who would charge you for a small update. Most of us are pretty liberal with that sort of thing if you bought a loader. Diesel tuning may not be as hard as some gassers, but it is far from as simplistic as you make it sound.
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Old March 10th, 2010, 00:57   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keaton
Not the goal to be a Pro tuner. just a DIY'er.


My time is free for my projects. You say its cheap for what I get, but if I want my tune tweeked to optimize my upgrades after everyone then that's a new tune...... diesel tuning is not that hard, go back to the cummins Gen 1/2 4bt/6bt no DME just a mechanical IP. More fuel = more power and higher egts, more air = lower egts. ...

I'm not new to diesel tuning, just new to diesels with a DME.
Most tuners charge a small fee, some none, for retunes due to hardware changes.

If only it was simple. What are safe boost levels at what RPM? How much timing advance do you choose? How much N75 (controls the VNT vanes) duty cycle? How far out do you run the torque to and when do you start dropping it? How do you avoid over-speeding the turbo? How much fuel do you add or pull for various nozzles? How much fuel do you add or pull to keep smoke and EGTs in check? Then factor in the various turbos that have different operating ranges and speeds. Also account for those with stock or upgraded exhaust, stock or upgraded clutch, stock or upgraded IC and/or IC pipes.

On top of THAT, what maps do you change?
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Old March 10th, 2010, 01:32   #11
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If you're interested in learning then www.chiptuners.org is a place to start digging. Be prepared for some hostility and territorial pissing. You just have to live with it. Just don't ask before you have done some searching yourself and show the results of your own work. For example if you're asking for what a certain map does then show what maps you already found out yourself. Too bad the good tutorials are not available anymore.
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Old March 10th, 2010, 02:14   #12
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I would love to learn to map but on the other hand i dont value my time as 'free' so the endless hours tweeking, burning, logging ect could get very boring, instead i pay some and the file that works perfectly first time falls into my inbox
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Old March 10th, 2010, 05:28   #13
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cheap 16bit emulator that can do 29f400 psop44 or twin 29f010 plcc32 would be nice
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Old March 10th, 2010, 05:57   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rub87
cheap 16bit emulator that can do 29f400 psop44 or twin 29f010 plcc32 would be nice

x2
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Old March 10th, 2010, 06:56   #15
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Tuning like everything else requires a certain skill to be proficient at. Tuners WILL protect their market vigorously. IN the end, they will lose to the folks who like open source tuning\editing. The ones who are really gifted, have nothing to fear from such groups. They will always be ahead, and available for a fee (of course) to fix the mistakes made by those with inadequate knowledge. Its just like auto repair. Most everyone (at least on sited like this) do their own brakes, many do their own turbos, injectors, oil changes and so on. That market was badly diluted so that auto repair places cant make money easily. Of course....shops were "thieves" for charging for "simple" repairs that most have to read a how to to accomplish and still need help. Just like you said about tuners. They are "thieves" for charging for their work and experience. But like auto repair shops...the tuners will fall as well. BUT again, like a gifted mechanic, a gifted tuner NEVER has to worry.
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