2009 Cold Start Scare/Problem?

2009 6spd Manual. 20k miles, bought 3/17/09. Oil changed 50 miles ago.

Normally the car is always in the garage at the coldest times, but I carpooled to work today, car sat outside for one of the colder days we've had yet this Winter, and the first really cold day the car has seen that it had to start in (as opposed to the garage).

Car has been sitting from 7am to 6:30pm, cold (35ish) most of the day, it's 27 degrees when I'm trying to start it.

- Turn the key to ignition, wait for glow plug, turn over, starts but immediately dies.
- Turn the key to ignition, wait for glow plug, turn key and can't turn over (similar to bad battery, but it's not). Had a very slight engine rotation but seems like starter can't handle load.
- Wait about 30 seconds, try again, turns over, but not starting, stop turning over.
- Try again, this time with a little bit of fuel applied, get it to sputter and sound like it's going to start, but it dies again.
- Try again, little fuel, get it to start.

Whole process was about 5-7 minutes.

Drove car home and everything seemed fine. Definitely the coldest (I know it's not that cold compared to some areas) I've experienced with the vehicle. Got crappy mileage for awhile for the obvious reasons and definitely took awhile to warm up.

Now, 2:30hrs later, went it and it started absolutely fine (sitting in garage). Doesn't sound different or anything.

Thoughts? Could this be a fuel thing? My last fillup was still relatively warm compared to winter. Oil change issue? Doubt it.

Thanks,
Brian

I had a somewhat similar problem about a week ago, when it was 32 F out. With car sitting in garage, car cranked but refused to turn over. Finally, I was stubborn and cranked engine for about 30 seconds and it finally started. Ran crappy for up to 10 sec and then ran fine.

Diesel fuel will obviously not gel at this temperature, but water in the lines will. There is a fuel filter heater, and I'm not sure if leaving car in "on" position (just before "start" position) will continue to power heating element?

I have personally decided to take 2 measures to try to prevent this from recurring.
1. I will only fuel up at truck stops, along the highway.
2. I am adding DieselService (white bottle) at every tankful, 4 oz.

There are many people on this site who are much more experienced with this problem than I am. I would suggest that you read through the threads exhaustively.

Please let me know if you learn anything definitive.

TDIzumSpass said:

I'm not sure if leaving car in "on" position (just before "start" position) will continue to power heating element?

Click to expand...

This was what I was wondering. Even though the Glow Plug light goes out, does it help to leave it in that position a little longer?

Didn't read "exhaustively", but did go through quite a few and didn't see any with the same symptoms, but maybe I missed it.

Brian

TDIzumSpass said:

I had a somewhat similar problem about a week ago, when it was 32 F out. With car sitting in garage, car cranked but refused to turn over. Finally, I was stubborn and cranked engine for about 30 seconds and it finally started. Ran crappy for up to 10 sec and then ran fine.

Diesel fuel will obviously not gel at this temperature, but water in the lines will. There is a fuel filter heater, and I'm not sure if leaving car in "on" position (just before "start" position) will continue to power heating element?

I have personally decided to take 2 measures to try to prevent this from recurring.
1. I will only fuel up at truck stops, along the highway.
2. I am adding DieselService (white bottle) at every tankful, 4 oz.

There are many people on this site who are much more experienced with this problem than I am. I would suggest that you read through the threads exhaustively.

Please let me know if you learn anything definitive.

Click to expand...

Not to jump all over you, but we need to address two things in your post.

1) in red.
Standard terminology is to crank or turn the engine over until it starts.
A running engine is not 'turning over' it is said to be 'running' or has 'started'.
'Turning over' to a mechanic means 'cranking the engine' either with the starter in an attempt to start an engine or with a wrench to position parts of the engine in a desired relationship as in during maintence.
Turning over means cranking, not running.

2) in purple?
The car has a fuel heater in the sense that hot fuel is returned(bypassed) from the engine to the fuel filter to preheat the fuel in the fuel filter.
Fuel is also circulated from the filter back to the fuel tank.
I do not know of an electrically powered fuel heater on these cars, but I have been surprised before.... so far the fuel system (on the CBEAs) from the fuel filter to the fuel tank looks to be just like the one on the PDs. From the filter to the engine is different though.

Not trying to nit pick, but the devil is in the details..

To the OP, I don't have anything definitive on your problem. It seems to be an electrical problem though, although it may never happen again. Try to always crank until the engine is fully running the first time you try to start it. When it is really cold out, assume you only get one chance, before the battery gives up.
(your battery has a lot of reserve, but if you always assume you get one chance to start any engine when it is cold out, you will be more likely to actually start every engine, every time in the long run.)

These nice engines start so darn quick in normal weather that it is easy to release the key too quickly when starting in the cold.

HTH

Bill

Good suggestion on making sure it starts in the cold. Will make sure of that, although, it doesn't seem like it should be necessary in any modern car.
But for the record, it *did* actually fully start up and then died, ran for about a second, so I didn't release the key too early.

I'm certainly not a professional car mechanic, but do rebuild my kart motors (dirt bike motors) and have been racing for 10years in cars and karts. With that knowledge, this did not seem at all like an electrical problem, more of a fuel issue or some other diesel issue that I've never experienced.
Of all the car starting problems I've had over the years, I've never experienced this strange a sequence of events. It's usually very obvious... battery, starter, alternator, lack of fuel or fuel mixture issue.

Thanks,
Brian

bgarfield said:

2009 6spd Manual. 20k miles, bought 3/17/09. Oil changed 50 miles ago.
<SNIP>

- Turn the key to ignition, wait for glow plug, turn key and can't turn over (similar to bad battery, but it's not). Had a very slight engine rotation but seems like starter can't handle load.
<SNIP>
Brian

Click to expand...

This was the part that I thought seemed eletrical in nature. An intermittent bad connection? It may never happen again, we hope.

Good luck!

Bill

I had the same thing happen to me a couple of weeks ago (same symptoms).
Then just before thanksgiving, going up a hill on the interstate I had a check engine light come on and the power dropped way off. I was near an exit to a VW dealer and puled in but it was too late (7 Pm). Stopped the car and restarted and everything cleared. When I did my 10K a couple of days later I hooked up the Vagcom and it indicated an EGR valve fault had occurred. I was going to take it into the dealer but did not have time and since it was running fine it sort of slipped my mind.
It happened again yesterday. Car is ket in a heated garage. Actually would not start and after trying several times over 2 hours called roadside assistance but once the truck arrived we were able to start it. Drove into the dealer and it appears to be the EGR valve is intermittently sticking. You may want to have yours checked. Mine is at the dealer right now and should have it back on Monday.

Happened to me...

bgarfield said:

2009 6spd Manual. 20k miles, bought 3/17/09. Oil changed 50 miles ago.

Normally the car is always in the garage at the coldest times, but I carpooled to work today, car sat outside for one of the colder days we've had yet this Winter, and the first really cold day the car has seen that it had to start in (as opposed to the garage).

Car has been sitting from 7am to 6:30pm, cold (35ish) most of the day, it's 27 degrees when I'm trying to start it.

- Turn the key to ignition, wait for glow plug, turn over, starts but immediately dies.
- Turn the key to ignition, wait for glow plug, turn key and can't turn over (similar to bad battery, but it's not). Had a very slight engine rotation but seems like starter can't handle load.
- Wait about 30 seconds, try again, turns over, but not starting, stop turning over.
- Try again, this time with a little bit of fuel applied, get it to sputter and sound like it's going to start, but it dies again.
- Try again, little fuel, get it to start.

Whole process was about 5-7 minutes.

Drove car home and everything seemed fine. Definitely the coldest (I know it's not that cold compared to some areas) I've experienced with the vehicle. Got crappy mileage for awhile for the obvious reasons and definitely took awhile to warm up.

Now, 2:30hrs later, went it and it started absolutely fine (sitting in garage). Doesn't sound different or anything.

Thoughts? Could this be a fuel thing? My last fillup was still relatively warm compared to winter. Oil change issue? Doubt it.

Thanks,
Brian

Click to expand...

This description is almost verbatim of what happened to me yesterday AM... mine was in garage overnight, but was pretty cold... after starting, drove fine... and after sitting outside while I was at work started fine after I let key in ignition a few more seconds before cranking...

last tuesday was -2F, car sitted out from 6.30AM to 6PM, and it starts right away.

I'm using Powerservice (white bottle) by the way.

No problem even in the morning, i have not a garage and the car always starts right away (i leave home around 5.20AM in the morning)

Only problem I'm having at those temps is the pesky DSG clutch drag which stops engine immediately after it fires-up.

30 minutes ago I had exactly, word in word, what first user (bgarfield) posted. A couple of couple of notes:
1) Car had no problem staring at 1F just a few day ago.
2) temp in garage was around 37 when it happenned.
3) There was a brief message (about 1s) on MFD that I read as "Engine fault! Workshop." Not sure though, might be in germаn...

Same Thing Just Happened to Me.

olyaed said:

30 minutes ago I had exactly, word in word, what first user (bgarfield) posted.

Click to expand...

Same here. Weird. Running trouble free for 12k then this same sequence 20 minutes ago. Turned over and started for a few seconds and quit. Wouldn't turn over -- like dead battery. Then turned over. Then wouldn't turn over. Then cranked and cranked. No start. All with a few a slight wait between attempts. Then start and stall after long cranking. Then start and run rough for 10 seconds -- then run fine 10 minutes to get home. Temperature outside is 31 degrees. Started fine just now when I got home.

What to do? It sucks to get into your car at 1 AM and have it not start.

My, we're being picky here. Such anal, OCD people.

Here's MY story. My JSW SNEEZED today. I'm not joking. 35 ambient, outdoors w/o heat for 15 hours, and during its first rev up through 2nd gear, it sounded like the clutch (DSG) slipped, and the cold, chattery engine momentarily spiked...sounded just like a sneeze.

I'm sure I'll never be able to duplicate it, but I just KNEW all you OCD folk would like to know.

Otherwise, at 17k and 7k, never a flicker at start-up. 17k getting mildly chuckly at start-up, sounding a bit like a real diesel...I love it.

I had virtually the same thing happen to me last Thursday.

Morning temperature was ~3 C (37 F).

Went out in the morning to start the car. Turned key to 'On', and waited for glow plugs. Turned key to 'Crank'. Engine appeared to start, so I returned the key to 'On'. Engine sputtered/died in less than a second. I was thinking... ahh... ***!

I shut it off again. Retried the above glow/crank sequence. The engine sounded like it did one turn-over when the key was held in the 'Crank' position, then it did nothing more. Like people have mentioned, it was like the battery was dead. However the internal compartment lights, etc all indicated a normal battery voltage/capacity.

I tried this a few times, with similar results. Sometimes it would crank a couple of times, before it would just stop cranking for no apparent reason. I also shut off the fan/seat heater/radio to reduce any electrical load.

One thing to note is that the fuel tank was very low (on the red, but it wasn't empty). I do park on a slight slope (but not very much of a slop). So I was concerned that there was no fuel. However, why wouldn't it continue to crank even if there was no fuel getting into the engine?

I got out of the car to shovel some snow from the driveway. Within 5 minutes, I was back in the car, attempting to start it again. The symptoms were similar, however it did start cranking longer (5 seconds, maybe). It then started sputtering, but stopped cranking. I did this a couple of times, then I applied a bit of throttle while cranking (they say not to do this?!). Anyway, it started and I rev'd it up to 2k RPM and it was very rough. I ran it at high idle for about a minute, and haven't had any problems since and there have been much lower temperature since as well (however I have since filled up the fuel tank as well).

I also had the check-engine light come on a couple of times.

What is the ERG valve that is mentioned?


Also, this is a 2009 TDI Jetta, 6-speed manual.

Here's a theory. The problem here is not fuel related, since most cars involved subsequently or previously started in colder weather on the same tank of fuel. And the refusal to crank, or slow cranking, is not a fuel problem. Hence, everything points to an intermittent electrical problem. It also seems to happening on the cusp of freezing weather and, I'd guess, in somewhat high humidity. It's not happening to the newer cars, but mostly to the ones that are entering their second winter on the road. Hence, could this be an issue with oxidation on an electrical contact somewhere that acts up intermittently under set conditions? Has anyone read the codes generated by these events?

Guys check your charge tube from the intercooler to the intake mainifold for moisture/ice build up.

I had the exact thing happen to me last night on my 2009 DSG with 15,000 miles on it (first winter). Started fine in the single digits earlier in the week, but had an issue at 37F.

Thanks. But would that affect the engine's ability to crank?

ScotR said:

Guys check your charge tube from the intercooler to the intake mainifold for moisture/ice build up.

Click to expand...

I agree that water would seem to be the problem. Perhaps there is also an electrical gremlin, since the car doesn't crank sometimes. The sputtering and not running well, particularly at temps just above 0°C, seem like water is somewhere it should not be. Try the PS & see if this problem replicates. If not, it's probably water. If it does, it's probably electrical & you're closer to your solution.

Do you suggest PS 9-11 or the regular white bottle?

Mike in Anchorage said:

I agree that water would seem to be the problem. Perhaps there is also an electrical gremlin, since the car doesn't crank sometimes. The sputtering and not running well, particularly at temps just above 0°C, seem like water is somewhere it should not be. Try the PS & see if this problem replicates. If not, it's probably water. If it does, it's probably electrical & you're closer to your solution.

Click to expand...

Use the white bottle anti gell. 911 is only for fuel that has already gelled. 911 contains alcohol which is not good for the injector system. Avoid using 911 unless its an emergency.

Dweisel

Thanks Mike and Dweisel! Will do.

dweisel said:

Avoid using 911 unless its an emergency.

Dweisel

Click to expand...

Actually this has happened to me twice, but once last year about this time, and (so far) once this winter. The one this winter I had drove my cars the usual 30 miles to work and it has set about 4 hours. I got in and let the GP warm up and turned the key as usual. The engine did start but it ran like crap for about 10 seconds then died. I waited, put the car in neutral and did the starting process again, and after some serious cranking, it fired up and, once again ran like crap but then corrected itself and I haven't had a problem since. The temperature was about 37F. No trouble codes or anything. Last year, it was dark and I don't remember the temperature. It did the exact same thing but I had no trouble getting it started again when it died the first time.

The constant I see, which I am sure is exclusively coincidence, but it looks like every incident is at or around 37 degrees. Like I say, this is probably just a coincidence...

Just remove the belly pan and pull off the 90 degree elbow at the intercooler and have a peek. Takes 10 minutes. Water being pulled through the intake will cause a no/slow crank (water does not compress)

I really doubt it's an electrical thing. It's very clear there's electrical power but the motor seems like it has too much compression for the starter to turn it over.

Water in the intake would definitely make more sense for what I (and it appears others) experienced.

Drove 250 miles since this with no signs at all of an issue.

Thanks for the excellent input.
Brian

When it gets below 0 Celsius here, I know that I have to start it on the first try or it refuses to start (has a bit of an attitude).

I usually cycle the GP's at least twice and I can count on 2 or 3 cranks of the starter and it starts right up.

It has been about -5 to -7 C over the last little bit and the car sits outside all the time, thanks for the seat heaters VW.

I am pretty sure that Chevron puts antigel in their winter diesel.

Any chance it's frozen condensation in the EGR valve? Not sure how that would impact starting, but someone mentioned an EGR fault code.

OK. Went out 4 PM today (temp 39 F) to start the car. Same as last night. Started right up, ran for 2 seconds and quit. Did that again. Finally, got it started and gave it fuel just as it started igniting, and powered through 10 seconds of rough idle. Only difference from last night, aside from the slightly warmer weather, is that my wife was in the car this time, and she was pretty sure, in observing what just happened, that I have a fuel issue. So we drove over and bought some Power Service White Bottle, put 4 oz into the 80 percent full tank, did a few fuel sloshing maneuvers, and took it for a spin on the expressway to burn up the fuel from the fuel line and filter housing. This turned out to be the hard part, as even staying in 4th gear at doing a few rapid accelerations to blow the intercooler dry (this works, right?), the car still showed 36 mpg. We'll see what tomorrow brings. I'm fairly confident that issue should be resolved.

We just had a week of very wet weather and rapid warm cool cycles -- so that may have played a part in getting water into the system.

I never encountered this particular problem, but last night I went to start my car for the first time in a week (ahh, vacation!) and it started right up but was idling very poorly and sounded like it wasn't firing on all four cylinders. It died after idling like that for about 10 seconds. I restarted and it did the same thing but the idle cleared up after about 15-20 seconds. First time that's ever occurred in the 20,000+ miles I've put on the car since 11/28/08. By the way, last night wasn't particularly cold here either.

I can't say if this really makes a difference or not; however, I would like to believe that it does, I use an additive (Opti-Lube XPD) religiously at every fill-up and even in 20 degree temps, it cranks and turns right over as if it's Summer time. I haven't heard of anyone using an additive (PS, Stanadyne, OL, etc.) experiencing this issue so maybe using an additive (especially this time of year) is paying off in more ways than one