Forgotten 'clean fuel' seeks respect

[PoliPino]

I thought this was an interesting article:

http://www.detnews.com/article/20091...-seeks-respect

Forgotten 'clean fuel' seeks respect

While electric vehicles control the spotlight, German automakers make renewed case for diesels

DALE BUSS
When Johan de Nysschen attended an exclusive dinner party in Washington, D.C., last month, the president of Audi of America got a gratifying clue about whether the company's investment in "clean diesel" vehicles may pay off.
Atlantic magazine publisher David Bradley was hosting one of his monthly power soirees -- this one on green technology -- with about two dozen "captains of industry and leading academics and political commentators," as de Nysschen put it, including General Electric CEO Jeffrey Immelt.
"Four people around the table at different times introduced the subject of clean diesel as part of the answer," de Nysschen said. "They're part of the opinion leadership of American society, so I'm encouraged that clean diesel will gain traction."
Audi's campaign is part of a major push by the four biggest German automotive brands to gain broader acceptance of diesel power by American consumers who have seemed congenitally put off by it. They are hoping to cash in on their lower-emission diesels by cutting into the some of the sales gains some Japanese and U.S.-based automakers made with hybrids.
So far, diesels have roughly the same share of the American market as gasoline-electric hybrids -- 2.6 percent -- despite years of hybrid hype. And during the next year, J.D. Power & Associates expects the two types of powertrains to remain on parallel tracks as each about doubles its share of the overall market.
In fact, diesel sales are better than expected. Clean-diesel versions already account for 35 percent of the sales of the Audi Q7 sport utility vehicle, double the company's expectations. About 80 percent of the sales of new Volkswagen Jetta SportWagens are diesel, and up to 20 percent of the sales of three Mercedes-Benz models.

[DickSilver]

Anyone who drives the gasser and TDI versions of the Jetta Sportwagen will discern immediately why 80% sold are the TDI. Fine car! I might own one now, except for the fact that VW decided to only offer one type of upholstery, which my wife will not accept. So we keep driving our B4V and B5.5V TDI cars, with velour and cloth seats.

[NYTDI]

And yet our (lucky) friends to the North get to choose cloth in the Golf wagon. Go figure.

Hello VW!!! Think you could give the USA the same choice? Oh and don't make cloth available only in a stripped out trim level or on a seat w/o lumbar adjust and heat.

[DickSilver]

VWOA has earplugs labeled "customers."

[rhode]

Electric cars and plug-ins are not just around the corner like many people think as there is a vast infrastructure to build taxing electrical grid. But, clean diesel is here now so why doesn't Obama and the Congress push for this?

[finnloag]

Here's an article where the AP shows some love for the new Golf and heavily features the TDI, the most fuel-efficient, non-hybrid compact car for 2010.
Iconic VW Golf revised for sixth generation

[heuiinj]

Originally Posted by rhode

Electric cars and plug-ins are not just around the corner like many people think as there is a vast infrastructure to build taxing electrical grid. But, clean diesel is here now so why doesn't Obama and the Congress push for this?

They have NO practical mechanical knowledge to understand the difference between how far a quart of ULSD will move a car compared to one kilowatt hour of electricity needed to charge a heavy battery.
Obama and Congress ONLY realize their own emotions and everything else is irrelevant. And likewise the people that support them run on emotions rather than practical common sense.

[Diesel_Mikey]

Originally Posted by finnloag

Here's an article where the AP shows some love for the new Golf and heavily features the TDI, the most fuel-efficient, non-hybrid compact car for 2010.
Iconic VW Golf revised for sixth generation

Sorry, I just had to repeat the greatest sentence in the history of automotive journalism:

"I prefer the four-door Golf, which was the test car, because access to the second row seats is much easier than it is in the two-door Golf."

I would also have accepted "I prefer the four-wheel Golf because it's easier to drive than the three-wheel Golf."

[shearwater_man]

Quote:
Originally Posted by rhode
Electric cars and plug-ins are not just around the corner like many people think as there is a vast infrastructure to build taxing electrical grid. But, clean diesel is here now so why doesn't Obama and the Congress push for this?
They have NO practical mechanical knowledge to understand the difference between how far a quart of ULSD will move a car compared to one kilowatt hour of electricity needed to charge a heavy battery.
Obama and Congress ONLY realize their own emotions and everything else is irrelevant. And likewise the people that support them run on emotions rather than practical common sense."

Subsidies, if they should ever be used (which is another debate), are for new technology. Diesel doesn't need subsidies. Stop complaining and enjoy your diesels. They're selling great. If there were money in cars right now, companies would put out more diesels. However, cheapskate diesel drivers don't make good customers. We buy cars and drive them for 200,000 miles. Why would a car company want to cater to us?

Finally, "Common Sense" is a great way of saying things you believe but don't have evidence or reason to back them up so they become "common sense." Your common sense may tell you that the electric grid can't handle the extra cars, but all of the calculations done by electrical engineers and power companies show that the grid can easily handle a huge amount of added demand at night since most power plants are idling then and waiting for daytime peak. Thus, once again, common sense is wrong and reasonable inquiry saves the day.

[LVTony]

Meantime, the Germans are lobbying members of Congress, arguing against existing federal taxes that are higher on diesel than gasoline.

The government needs to lower the tax on diesel and/or raise the tax on gas. I've never understood why the tax is higher on diesel, since it is the fuel of industry. That just makes our food and goods cost more. Yes, tractor trailers put more wear on the roads, but tax that separately (if needed).

If the government lowered diesel tax and raised gas tax, diesel vehicles would become mainstream almost overnight, food and goods would cost a little less and our oil imports would go down (Yay better mileage!).

Of course, most auto manufacturers (the "big" three) would not like people driving their cars for 200,000 miles before replacing them...

[kcfoxie]

Originally Posted by shearwater_man

Quote:
Originally Posted by rhode
Electric cars and plug-ins are not just around the corner like many people think as there is a vast infrastructure to build taxing electrical grid. But, clean diesel is here now so why doesn't Obama and the Congress push for this?
They have NO practical mechanical knowledge to understand the difference between how far a quart of ULSD will move a car compared to one kilowatt hour of electricity needed to charge a heavy battery.
Obama and Congress ONLY realize their own emotions and everything else is irrelevant. And likewise the people that support them run on emotions rather than practical common sense."

Subsidies, if they should ever be used (which is another debate), are for new technology. Diesel doesn't need subsidies. Stop complaining and enjoy your diesels. They're selling great. If there were money in cars right now, companies would put out more diesels. However, cheapskate diesel drivers don't make good customers. We buy cars and drive them for 200,000 miles. Why would a car company want to cater to us?

Finally, "Common Sense" is a great way of saying things you believe but don't have evidence or reason to back them up so they become "common sense." Your common sense may tell you that the electric grid can't handle the extra cars, but all of the calculations done by electrical engineers and power companies show that the grid can easily handle a huge amount of added demand at night since most power plants are idling then and waiting for daytime peak. Thus, once again, common sense is wrong and reasonable inquiry saves the day.

You've obviously not learned anything from Snapper Co and their Divorce from Walmart.

While some may argue that VWs are not the most dependable, and some want to proclaim that diesels cost more to operate, there is a niche that I happen to be a part of that would be very hard hit if we had no diesels to drive.

I believe the TDI is the finest example of VW craftsmanship and quality, and I can say this given that the new CR TDIs have had less panic-striking problems than the potential cam issues of it's previous BRM PD engine (which was nothing compared to the massive cam failures in chipped 2.0T vehicles, including those chipped with APR sold at VW Dealers)... the car as a whole is fantastic.

Volkswagen knows that I'll come back for another one. If I were to be hit on I-40 coming home from Durham today I'd certainly be at one of the local stealerships to buy a Sportwagen (and cannibalizing parts from my wrecked car to make it be like I want: steering wheel controls and all), even with the known limitation on Biodiesel use.

Why? Because I like the 5th generation wagon a lot more than the 4th. I'll buy another one because I know how to make it last, and make it work for me. It's not a Toyota and that's why I bought it.

VW should be happy with their Snapper-like niche instead of trying to become Walmart. Snapper wised up, they're still in business (I actually own one, a third generation buyer actually).

Re: Common Sense
I live in an area where I suffer power outages during the heat of August and I pray that we never have a hard freeze or my parrots may freeze. I live in Raleigh, by the way, and I can't even get DSL where I live. I don't for a moment believe that we have "so much excess power" that we can handle plugging in 500,000+ vehicles at 5-7pm and not cause power outages and brown outs.

Call me silly, but I've lost power enough times in a wealthy part of the city to know better than to trust the "experts" who are looking at these new cars as their key to becoming the new OPEC.

I don't believe EVs will be "just another fridge on the circuit" and I don't believe the calming stories of how it'll be cheap. More energy use means everyone pays more, that's simple math. We can see this in water usage, which is a more serious problem out state should be dealing with instead of trying to build an EV structure for cars that "don't pollute."

There you can have the soapbox back.

[chewy]

Originally Posted by LVTony

The government needs to lower the tax on diesel and/or raise the tax on gas. I've never understood why the tax is higher on diesel, since it is the fuel of industry. That just makes our food and goods cost more. Yes, tractor trailers put more wear on the roads, but tax that separately (if needed).

If the government lowered diesel tax and raised gas tax, diesel vehicles would become mainstream almost overnight, food and goods would cost a little less and our oil imports would go down (Yay better mileage!).

Of course, most auto manufacturers (the "big" three) would not like people driving their cars for 200,000 miles before replacing them...

There is only 6 cent per gallon difference in the federal gas and diesel taxes. Like you said the difference probably comes from the fact that fuel taxes are used for road construction and diesels in this country is mostly used by 18 wheelers that do lots more damage to the roads that cars which are gasoline powered. Good luck somehow taxing the trucking industry.

In the end the 6 cent difference isn't the biggest factor, but it is something.

[LVTony]

Ah, 6 cents difference in federal tax is only the beginning. State and local taxes make more of a difference. Of course now that most diesel produced meets the 10 ppm ULSD level for Europe, the cost of diesel here in the states is higher because they sell it to Europe too. Supply is effectively limited so price goes up.

[nuclear]

I've owned both full electric and diesel vehicles (I'm also a Engineering PhD). Even the best battery technology today doesn't have the range and environmental friendliness biodiesel fueled vehicles have, not to mention about even the top of line Li-ion type production batteries have about 1/40th less energy density. Batteries (including modern proposals) use many of the most exotic and hard to produce materials that often require replacement after a few years use. Anybody who argues battery storage for transportation is a fool.

[D_Bill]

I've gotten so jaded about ev's that I can't stand the topic.

Advantages of ev's :

I'm tied to the electric grid ( think about not being in or near a city ) - not - not at all free to just drive off - I used to do Maine and back in a weekend - 1000+ miles in not much more than 48 hours

I can't go more than 250 miles/day ( why would I want to leave home anyway ? It's not like there's people that drive cars/trucks all day for their job . ) ( think day trip to the lake/ocean/mtns for swimming/fishing/skiing )


I shouldn't want to tow a trailer anyhow - nor haul 4 people w/ac on in July - with alot of tools/camping equipment ( used to be a Scout leader ) - for more than into town

batteries work better in the cold -- just put yourself into their shoes on a January night in Minnesota ( add in a blizzard if you like )

mining the resources for batteries destroys the environment big time ( not that I believe in the closed ( carbon ) loop that biodiesel has . . . )

big energy has no vested interest in us being dependent upon their fossil fuels - at the gas pump or power plant

Disadvantages of ( bio ) diesel :

Not the above


Please excuse my rant - I think someday - someday when you can run ev's off a photovoltaic cell on the car's roof ( ie big energy need not be a participant ) and do 1000 miles in 16-18 hours (not 4 days as its a nice 's day drive when I take a long vacation ) it will be the equal - mpg wise and carbon footprint wise - to ( bio ) diesel . Again I'm ranting - sorry

I'm amazed at how much ahead of his time R Diesel was . . .