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Old June 16th, 2009, 17:50   #1
CoolAirVw
 
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TDI(s): Jetta
Fuel Economy: 40
Default 01M part 2

01M part 2. (not as interesting as Part 1, but I promise a good one for Part 3!)

Heres 01M part 1 http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread...&highlight=01m

Victim: Yellow Bug 01M
Mileage:
Complaint: Wont move and Engine vibrates

Background: This car is “Daughter” driven. Local shop diagnosed as bad trans with estimate of 3000-4000 dollars.

As I tried to drive the Bug into the shop it just barely moved. Engine was racing like crazy, car was barely drifting forward, and engine was shakin’ like a poodle crappin’ a peach pit. I gave up and we pushed it in the bay. I started thinking, “better stick in a 5 speed!” (not really!)

I scanned it and it had 00652 “Gear Monitoring Implausible” code. This simply means that the trans computer (TCM) commands a certain gear, and doesn’t “see” the ratio it should “see”. It “sees” this ratio by comparing engine rpm with output rpm, taking into account which gear the trans is in. So if the TCM commands 1st it should see 1st ratio. If TCM commands 2nd, then it should see 2nd ratio.

So in this circumstance as I was driving into the service bay, the computer was commanding 1st gear but it wasn’t seeing 1st ratio, because the trans was slipping.

Next, check the fluid level, and as some of you may have guessed, there was none. Quick fill up with correct fluid, clear code, and this baby worked like new. So where’s the fluid going? I’ll postpone the answer, for now, for dramatic effect.

So as I said earlier the car had a little vibration. I could see from under the hood the trans side of the powertrain was sagging and from underneath I could see the pendulum mount was all "cocked up" from the sagging. So I pull the breather and I see this.




Good grief! How did this happen? Notice the broken piece I set up on the harness? Here’s the mount out of the car.



The plate cover that protects the front of the trans pan had a big dent and the plate cover for the engine was broken away from the engine and bent severely.

“Daughter” hit something and didn’t bother telling Ma or Pa. Probably drove over a curb or median or maybe she went 4 wheeling. Either way she ended up with a pan that looked like this.




This was not a slow leak! Overnight it left this puddle.



But “daughter”, ma, pa and neighboring shop never saw all that because they got the Bug after the trans was empty. And of course neighboring shop, didn’t know how to check one of them “sealed” up trannies.

Moral to the story is…

Check your fluid before you condemn the trans.

Or, “Get a skid plate!”

Or as Dr. House says, “The patients always lie!”

Of course we dropped the pan to inspect. It looked ok, but fluid was a little dark.



And filter was clean too.



Trans worked good, except for minor delayed engagement which is common for high mileage.
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Last edited by CoolAirVw; September 14th, 2011 at 03:07.
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Old June 16th, 2009, 17:50   #2
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I took some graphs of the Torque Converter Clutch (TCC) apply and it looked like this.

Heres what your looking at. Yellow is engine RPM. Green is TCC slip, measured in RPM.
Flat spots where green and yellow come together, is me sitting at a stop light. Individual peaks are gear changes, and last ramp downward is TCC applying. Bad choice for me, but the graph has zero TCC slip at the bottom which makes it unviewable. (see better graph below)
Tcc slip explained. All torque converters slip. This is what allows you to come to a stop without killing the motor. Broken down into its simplest form, if the engine rpm, at a stop, in gear, is 800, then the torque converter is allowing 800 rpms of slip.
Torque converter slip impacts fuel economy and emissions, so the car manufactures, under pressure from the EPA, added TCC . When the TCC is applied, it eliminates the slip. What this means is if TCC is locked fully, then engine speed should match transmission input shaft speed. Transmission input shaft speed is only known, by the Trans Control Module (TCM), on a 01M, because it is calculated, based on Output shaft speed, multiplied by gear ratio. So, the TCM subtracts input shaft RPM, from engine RPM, and this is the TCC slip parameter that is graphed above. Vag-com shows this in Group 7.
To fully understand the graph, you’ll need to know that the torque converters slip less at higher turbine speeds. The turbine is a part inside the torque converter that splines to the input shaft. So as you accelerate and the turbine (and input shaft) speed up, the slip lessens. This is due to vortex flow, google it, if you really want to know. This is why, as engine rpm ramps upward, TCC slip ramps downward.
So, on the above graph you can see each peak is a gear change. A upshift slows the speed of the input shaft, so the slip goes up, till the turbine (input shaft) rpm goes up again.
Then, when the computer is ready, meaning load and speed situations are correct, the computer applies the torque converter clutch, by providing ground to the TCC solenoid (n91) inside the trans. At this point the TCC slip should drop to zero.
Better graph.

On this graph I changed the "pixel shift"to 7 and all you can see is the end of the 2-3, the 3-4 shift and the TCC apply. I also changed the vertical scale, so that the bottom of the graph is -50 (negitive 50), so that you can see zero slip. Actually the best scale selection for TCC graphing is 900 to -100 with pixel shift at 15. This puts zero slip right on the first gradient with the best "resolution" for the graph. Pay no attention to the vertical scale, in this picture because that vertical scale is for engine rpm, even though I dont have engine rpm displayed.

Only thing else I can think of right now is that you may need to know when the computer is commanding TCC on, and what gear is being comanded.
Vag-com gives you this info in group 7 field 1, but you need to know how to interpret it.
Its in this format....1H+
Whereas the 1st digit is the gear the TCM commands, (1,2,3 or 4)
Whereas the 2nd digit is M or H. "M" means TCM commanded TCC on, "H" means TCM did not.
Whereas the 3rd digit is "+" or "-". "+" means your accelerating, and "-" means your coasting.
Obviously this info is useful in diagnosing more than just the TCC. Say your trans has no 4th. First thing you should do, after checking codes, is see if TCM is commanding 4th.
This is all I got for now. I may edit and add more later.
01M part 3 http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread...71#post2625671
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Last edited by CoolAirVw; October 7th, 2013 at 05:29.
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Old June 16th, 2009, 18:01   #3
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Good info...but personally I would like to see this merged in with your other thread. Or at least link them back to each other.
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Old June 16th, 2009, 19:20   #4
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Extremely good information, well presented. A+

Thank you very much. I love learning something.
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Old May 21st, 2013, 03:39   #5
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Default I'm reading and re-reading ...

I'm reading and re-reading ... And slowly stuff about these gearboxes is sinking in!

Appreciate the fact that years can roll by ... the original posters may have even moved on, but the body of knowledge and experience is there to enlighten the next generation of enthusiasts!
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Old December 14th, 2017, 09:49   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoolAirVw View Post
Whereas the 1st digit is the gear the TCM commands, (1,2,3 or 4)
Whereas the 2nd digit is M or H. "M" means TCM commanded TCC on, "H" means TCM did not.
Whereas the 3rd digit is "+" or "-". "+" means your accelerating, and "-" means your coasting.
[FONT=Times New Roman]Obviously this info is useful in diagnosing more than just the TCC. Say your trans has no 4th. First thing you should do, after checking codes, is see if TCM is commanding 4th.
New 2003 Jetta wagon to me no tow hitch.
It was stuck in limp mode when I bought it so 3rd gear. Changed the fluid and filter as per DBW pdf and your website. drained 2l very low on fluid, fluid was burnt and dirty, but Pan looked clean! I tore open filter and some burnt oil curds? in there crumbled into gritty dust and very tiny amount)
Did fuzzy reset, now shifts great from 1-2 then will not go into 3rd which it was in before? Must be a sensor right?
Thermostat Temperature below control range P0128-35-10
Readiness: 11000
Transmission codes:
65282 development code 3 27-00 implausible signal,
65283 Dev code 4 27-10 implausible signal intermittent
and the 01192 torque converter lock-up clutch 04-10 mechanical malfunction intermittent.
Thanks for any info you can shine on this KCCAVW.
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Last edited by indysoto; December 14th, 2017 at 09:54.
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Old December 15th, 2017, 14:32   #7
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Define "wont go into 3rd".

Here's several ways I might interpret "wont go into 3rd".

1. stays in 2nd.
2. when it shifts to 3rd, engine races up like its in neutral.
3. When it shift to 3rd it jerks and car slows down and then its back in 2nd (binds in 3rd)

Each one could be considered" wont go into 3rd". Each one would be diagnosed differently.

I'm not familiar with "developement code" and I cannot spend the time to look up code definitions. I would assume your using shareware version of vagcom???
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Old December 16th, 2017, 23:03   #8
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#2 on your list, races up like in neutral.
Full version of VagCom, it's a older usb 2015 hex +can I guess I need to register it with their tech support on my new laptop.
Ever seen those crumblies in the filter before? Kind of like really big mouse turds?
I ordered a new ribbon cable as one member suggested, oem. And I will check the fitting known to get water in it.
Do you still sell you ribbon tool?
Thanks!
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Old December 16th, 2017, 23:15   #9
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Sounds like some clutch disks burned up/disintegrated. Might be time to investigate a 5 speed swap.
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Old December 17th, 2017, 00:50   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turbobrick240 View Post
Sounds like some clutch disks burned up/disintegrated. Might be time to investigate a 5 speed swap.
Thanks..Yea hope not, but I agree it does seem like that material gritty clumped that diagnosis could very well be the case... But if that is the only thing I might try to fix it, never operated on a tranny, but I have replaced a Escape 4cyl tranny before. 10k later still nice and pink with a hi flow external filter. I have always wanted too dissect one, just never found a cache of stainless to make myself a mess proof workstation.
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Old December 17th, 2017, 10:11   #11
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If it neutrals when its supposed to go to 3rd there is a good chance the k3 clutch is burned out.

Probably would be a waste of time to change the harness. Almost always a harness problem will cause a solenoid code.
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Old January 1st, 2018, 15:06   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoolAirVw View Post
If it neutrals when its supposed to go to 3rd there is a good chance the k3 clutch is burned out.
Probably would be a waste of time to change the harness. Almost always a harness problem will cause a solenoid code.
Cool.. Thanks Richard, It was stuck in 3rd (limp mode?) when I got it, does K3 engage differently from k2 than it does from a stand still?
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