www.tdiclub.com

Economy - Longevity - Performance
The #1 Source of TDI Information on the Web!
Forums TDIFAQ Articles Links Meets
Orders TDI Club Cards TDIFest 2013 Gone, but not forgotten VAG-Com List Unit Conversions TDIClub Chat Thank You



Go Back   TDIClub Forums > TDI Model Specific Discussions Areas > VW MKV-A5 Golf/Jettas

VW MKV-A5 Golf/Jettas Discussions area for A5/MkV Jetta/Golf (2005/2006 PD and 2009 CR).

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old June 27th, 2011, 02:19   #106
zleem60
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Queen Creek, AZ
Default

@ sptsailing,
You didn't mention which fan, big or small is not working? I had problems with my small fan (condensor) and had it replaced. I also replaced the High pressure sensor now both fans come on but not at a high speed first 15-30minutes in the morning. When the AC finally comes on in my car, both fans are spinning at much higher speed. I can run it all day after that and it won't be hot again unless I let it sit for more than an hour.


Quote:
Originally Posted by sptsailing View Post
My 2006 TDI AC was acting up similarly. The VW dealer diags showed a bad fan, for which they quoted $587 to replace. I found an OEM replacement on eBay for $85 + $15 shipping and replaced it myself. Not too hard a job. I took the old fan apart and found that one of the armature brushes was simply stuck a little too far away to make contact with the armature. I might have been able to fix it by simply tapping on the bad fan with a hammer.
zleem60 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 27th, 2011, 02:32   #107
zleem60
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Queen Creek, AZ
Default

Dan,

You might be right, but the fans would not even come on until I replaced the HP sensor. Now they do spin but at at a very fast speed. But they are coming on so I think the HP Sensor in my car did go bad. Now, next thing I have to figure out is how to use the Vag-com to figure out which other thing is causing AC not blow cold air in the first 15-30minutes in the morning. I will give your idea a shot this weekend because my mechanic is coming over to put his AC gauges on it. He did mention that if the expansion valve is stuck in open. we may have to replace it. I'll order one just in case.

Caper7 mentioned about the temperature sensor. I can't find it on Bentley's manual. Is he talking about the Evaporator temperature sensor inside the car by the passenger foot well? I just want to get this thing fix. 15 minutes driving in the hot car in AZ is no fun. Worse when the AC doesn't kick in until after 30 minutes. So any insight would be great. I do have a Vag-Com but haven't the slightest clue how to use it properly. Can you shed some light?
when you say to pull the charge and oil. Do you have to have a special machine to do that. I think my mechanic have to vacuum but I will have to check with him. What are the difference between the PAG and PAO oil and where do I find them? Sorry for so many questions but I'm kind of loss here.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DanG144 View Post
I don't think the HP sensor will fix it.
With a VCDS you can often see that the HP sensor works properly, but you get the delay.

As an experiment, on a friend's 05.5 Jetta, we added about an ounce of fresh PAG oil to the compressor. It is no longer sticking - but it has only been a month or so.

It might be worth pulling the charge and oil, then refilling it with PAO oil instead of PAG, as an experiment.
zleem60 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 27th, 2011, 03:19   #108
DanG144
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Chapin, South Carolina, USA
Default

All of the information I have points to the fact that the fault is in the compressor- in the Refrigerant Control Valve (RCV).

I have worked with data from about 6 cars.

Each time the problem was that even with full displacement demanded by the controller, and showing full current to the RCV, the high pressure would stay too low.

Let us know how your txv testing turns out.
In every case that I know of, with ONE exception, the delayed starting was fixed by replacing the compressor. For one unlucky Texan, even this did not fix it. Perhaps they did not flush properly and something fouled his RCV immediately.

Go into measuring blocks and you can find the RCV current, High pressure sensor output, fan control signal and all the other temperature sensor outputs. You can log them over time using the LOG function, add the date or some other characters to the automatically proposed file name (before the .CSV) before starting to take data.

If you do this and catch the delay, then catch the same data after it has freed up for the day, you can see what I am talking about.

The evaporator temperature will be too high, the high pressure will be too low, the low pressure (this takes a gauge set - all the rest is VCDS) will be too high, the RCV current will be maxed out (about .825 amp?)

You will have to do your own research about PAG and PAO oils. As with every oil discussion I know of there will be controversy.

I am NOT an air conditioning expert, or an oil expert; I am just an interested amateur.

There are quite a few temperature sensors for Climatronic systems, maybe only one (the evaporator temp) for the Climatic systems. Check your temperature sensors out by reading them prior to starting the system, when the car has been out of the sun and off for 8 hours. They should all read about ambient temperature.

A bad evaporator sensor can prevent compressor loading. It would not create delays the first time of the day, then normal from then on. I only know of one failure of an evaporator temperature sensor - it resulted in NO AC at all.
DanG144 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 28th, 2011, 01:13   #109
zleem60
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Queen Creek, AZ
Default

Dan,

I donít have a clue which block Iím suppose to measure to figure out all that you are referring to.

I got as far as getting to Address 08: Auto HVAC (1k0 907 044 BA)
This is what I notice when the AC is on but no cool air is blowing. Here are the readings:

Group 003: 10.0 Bar Coolant pressure
35.6 % Radiator Fan Activation (actual)
38.0 % Radiator Fan Activation (Spec.)
On Engine Speed (increase)

When the AC is blowing cool air, this is what I observed:

Group 003: 15.0 Bar Coolant Pressure
67.6 % Radiator Fan Activation (actual)
68.4 % Radiator Fan Activation (Spec.)
On Engine Speed (increase)

From reading the data, I know both Radiator and Condensor fan is moving a lot fasting and AC is cold coming out. I also notice when I stopped to read some of the data, the Coolant pressure started to drop so did the speed of the fan slowing and the AC started to become not as cold. However, when I did rev the engine a bit, the coolant pressure rise and AC is blowing cold because the fan is moving faster.

So, do you know which measuring blocks I need to go into to find the RCV current, High pressure sensor output, fan control signal and all the other temperature sensor outputs that you have mentioned. I donít have clue where to find this information.

The VCDS 10.6 manual does not specific identified which block goes to which sensor.
Is there a way to have the VAG-Com to list all available block to print or put into excel format. That might help me find it easier.

Any insight would be great. Now Iím just wondering how to keep the Coolant pressure high enough to keep the fans from falling below 30%, thatís when AC doesnít blow cold air. I will tell you there are no fault codes found when I did the autoscan, as least it did not involve the HVAC components.
zleem60 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 28th, 2011, 03:28   #110
DanG144
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Chapin, South Carolina, USA
Default

When in measuring blocks, please note the name of the file in the top left of the screen, and send it to me.

You can often look in advance measuring blocks for documented data, or you can just page through all of the numbers one Measured Value Block or group at a time.

If you click on the file name, it should open and let you see all of the available data points, with all of the notes that they will show. I don't know another way to open a xx.clb file (which I think yours is.) Perhaps someone can enlighten us. You can find the files with explorer if you go to C drive, ROSS-TECH, VCDS, Labels. If it is a xxx.lbl file then you can open it in notepad. You can then print this file.

You have it backwards on the cause and effect. The fan speed varies due to the pressure, not the pressure due to the fan speed. Higher pressure means hotter temperatures on the high side -compressor discharge side- condenser coil side- and the fan is asked to run faster to cool it off.

The fans are simply left and right, both cool the radiator and both cool the condenser coil; they should always run at the same speed because they are fed power from the same pulse width modulated controller.

This is a guess. Try looking at MVB 018, first field for Compressor Current Specified value, also look for Compressor Current actual value - some cars have it and some do not. The maximum compressor current value is .825 amps, I think.

Another guess. Look at MVB 15 field 1 for "compressor shutoff requirement" it gives you the status of the compressor interlocks, if your car is the same as the single data log that I have left after a computer crash.

The pressure that you give in your post is the high side pressure, measured in BAR, just multiply by 15 to get approximate psi. 14 or 15 BAR is normal, for a hot day with full AC load.

If your evaporator temperature starts to drop below 5 C, the compressor may start to unload - you can see compressor current drop and compressor discharge pressure drop, if this happens. The compressor control scheme may look at other factors than simply evaporator temperature - I don't know the full control algorithm. But when you see compressor control current drop you know the system is asking the compressor for less than full output.

I hope I have given you a starting point.
DanG144 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 28th, 2011, 04:48   #111
DanG144
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Chapin, South Carolina, USA
Default

I would say that these are the critical things to log while troubleshooting.

These are from a 2010 Climatic system, and on this one you can only use "Advanced Measuring Values" it will not let me use the measuring value blocks.

Compressor load 003
Compressor shut-off requirement 005
Compressor current; specified value 007
Coolant fan activation; actual value 009
Refrigerant pressure 039
Temperature after evaporator 057

The numbers are not likely to be the same for your vehicle, but the descriptors very well may be. At least they should be close.

Last edited by DanG144; June 28th, 2011 at 04:51.
DanG144 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 28th, 2011, 11:16   #112
zleem60
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Queen Creek, AZ
Default

Thanks Dan, I'm going to give that a shot on all that you have provided. One way or another, we'll figure it out with your help. Thanks!! I'm going to throw the VAG-Com on the car and see if I can pull up the "Advanced Measuring values". I will post with results.
zleem60 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 29th, 2011, 06:52   #113
zleem60
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Queen Creek, AZ
Default

I still can't figure where to find these perimeters to show you. I got don't see any of the items you gave in advance measuring blocks, so I can't even give you what the measurements are. I have the Vag-com with the software VCDS 10.6. Am I using the right cable and software to read the cars info? I just don't know. Any insight would be great. Maybe I'm using the wrong software.
zleem60 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 29th, 2011, 07:06   #114
DanG144
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Chapin, South Carolina, USA
Default

You have the right software and cable.

The names may be slightly different.

The equivalents are available somewhere in your AC controller. Can you tell me which file is used (upper left corner) when doing measuring blocks (not shown for advance measuring)?

Dan
DanG144 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 29th, 2011, 13:41   #115
DanG144
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Chapin, South Carolina, USA
Default

Ok, talked to Zleem60.

His label file is 1K0-907-044.lbl

The equivalent points of interest are:

Compressor load 2,4 = Compressor load
Compressor, Shut-off Code, Specification 1,1 = Compressor shut-off requirement
Compressor, Current (specified) 2,2 = Compressor current; specified value
Compressor, Current, (actual) 2,1 = was not available on 2010.
Radiator Fan, Activation (act) 3,2 = Coolant fan activation; actual value
Coolant Pressure 3,1 = Refrigerant pressure 039
Evaporator, Temperature 6,1 = Temperature after evaporator 057

Note that even in this module sometimes coolant means Engine Coolant - the pink antifreeze, and sometimes it means Refrigerant = Freon = R134a = Coolant.
This can be very confusing.

After talking to Zleem, it sounds as if (now that he has fixed his small fan) the only issue he has is the dreaded delayed cooling for the first 15 minutes or so of the day.

This issue is too common with the early Climatic systems here in the US. It is also a problem with the Climatronic systems after 2005.5.

His AC control system appears to be doing all it can. It is sending out .82 amps to ask the compressor Refrigerant Control Valve (RCV) to port refrigerant to the wobble plate control piston to move to full displacement. But the move to full displacement is not occurring.

There are no codes that prevent operation, no interlocks.

Either the RCV is faulty, sticking perhaps.
Or the piston is simply not able to move the wobble plate - it leaking, or the wobble plate is sticking.

I have had some measure of success (short term - 3 weeks of no delayed start) in this situation by adding an ounce of PAG 46 oil to the compressor. Who knows if it will last or not?
DanG144 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 7th, 2011, 03:51   #116
zleem60
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Queen Creek, AZ
Default

Dan,
Still running into same problem. Although it seems to be cooling at around 9 minutes now instead of 15 minutes after we pulled the old freon out and added an ounce of oil into compressor. Still not cooling like it should. Have to say if my 2002 jetta has current tags and insurance on it. Would be driving that instead. I just finished the Auto to 6 speed swap and the 2002 Jetta have new life and AC is cold as ice in that car. Oh well, I'm waiting for the Refrigerant control valve to come in. Hopefully sooner than later. Will keep update when it arrives to see if it helps the AC issue.
Thanks again,
Mike
zleem60 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 7th, 2011, 05:46   #117
DanG144
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Chapin, South Carolina, USA
Default

Thanks for the feedback.
I was pretty sure that the oil addition would not be a panacea.
Looking forward to find if the RCV fixes it.
DanG144 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 16th, 2011, 12:41   #118
TNTMORE
Newbie
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Indiana
Default

I have an 06 Jetta TDI and have checked all fuses and relays, replaced large fan with new OEM one and still have no fans at all(even when the car reachs 190*) Help.
TNTMORE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 16th, 2011, 15:11   #119
DanG144
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Chapin, South Carolina, USA
Default

The temperature indicator reads 190F over a wide range of actual engine temps, about 167 to 225F. It is computer driven to indicate "normal" over all normal ranges.

It is very rare for a TDI fan to come on simply due to engine temperature. If you get into a spot where no air will naturally flow over the radiator, and rev your engine to 2000 rpm for a while (maybe 20 minutes), then the fans will possibly come on.

I see it sometimes during diesel purge sessions, but almost no other time.

Your fans can best be checked with a VCDS, doing the Engine module, OUTPUT TEST. It will cycle the fans from minimum to maximum speed.

Alternatively you can read high side AC pressure with VCDS and the fans should come on about 150 psig or so, in their slowest possible speed.

If you monitor the AC pressure with a set of gauges and you do not see them come on at high pressures, then you know that either your HP sensor or your fans have failed.
DanG144 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 7th, 2011, 10:21   #120
grecher
Newbie
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: strathroy
Default

have a 2006 jetta TDI, how do i jump 12v too fans to confirm that they work, can't see connector to the fans from the top.
grecher is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:27.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright - TDIClub Online LTD - 2014
Contact Us | Privacy Statement | Forum Rules | Disclaimer
TDIClub Online Ltd (TDIClub.com) is not affiliated with the VWoA or VWAG and is supported by contributions from viewers like you.
© 1996 - 2013, All Rights Reserved
Page generated in 0.15928 seconds with 9 queries
[Output: 125.58 Kb. compressed to 105.60 Kb. by saving 19.98 Kb. (15.91%)]