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TDI 101 Got a simple/basic TDI question? Are you a newbie (new to the forums). Feel free to post your question here.

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Old June 3rd, 2009, 19:34   #1
Havokk
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Default Fly wheel off by 6 teeth after tb job, solutions?

Ok guys and gals, i could use some of your creativity and experence to come up with a possible solution.

I had the crank at tdc and locked with a crank lock, the cam locked down with plate and feeler guages, and the ip locked in place.

I un pin the ip pump when i tighten the tensioner with the spanner wrench. Torqued down the cam sproket and check everything to make sure cam and fly wheele still at tdc and they were. Then i removed the cam locking plate and the crank locking plate.

Before i turn anything, the belt is like 1/4 of a tooth off on the ip pump but solid on the crank and cam.


I turn the engine at the crank and the belt seats its self on the ip and begins to move. I had marked the belt before moving it at the cam, crank and ip to see if any teeth skipped after i was done turning my crank.

Two complete turns of the engine and no contact between the valves and the pistion BUT.... While the fly wheel is at tdc, the cam and ip is off. I expected the ip to be off because of the belt seating it self but the cam?

So to get the plate back into the cam to lock it down to see how far off the crank is, i had to rotate the crank towards the radiator which was approximately 6 teeth.

What is a good solution for this, i back the engine two revolutions by hand to get back to where i had initially set everything, carefully.


So long story short, would it be a good idea to reset everthing and have the crank tdc moved 6 fly wheel teeth towards the fire wall to compensate for the slack being taken up on the ip.

Since the ip has already seated it self and and lined up with the belt teeth, previously off by 1/4 of a tooth, if i were to reset the crank to match the cam it shouldnt have the same problem of having the belt off it by 1/4 of a tooth.

Sorry for the extensive typing but i would like to hear what you might all say :-). No i did not use the paint and pray method, i followed bently to the letter and that walk though on here. Also thanks to everyone who has given me advise so far. No rush though, i have another car. Oh yeah the crank didnt meet up with the cam and ip locked in place when i started in the first place, it was off by like 3 or 4 teeth.
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Old June 3rd, 2009, 20:12   #2
AndyBees
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I'll be glad to comment!

Six teeth on the FLYWHEEL is equivalent to ONE TOOTH on the crankshaft timing belt sprocket. In the situtaion you described, the crankshaft is advanced in relation to the IP and Cam.

Rotate the engine back to TDC at the CAM and IP... install the IP pin and Cam lock plate. Then loosen the TB tensioner and loosen and remove the Cam Sprocket. Push the TB downward creating some slack at the crank sprocket. Now, rotate the crank counter clockwise (toward firewall) until you see the timing mark on the flywheel. Do not install the crank hold-down device.

Now, pull the TB up at the IP to remove slack, install TB and CAM sprocket. Then, with the tool, take up the slack by tightening the tensioner. Now, look at the Timing mark at the flywheel..... should be dead-on or very close (half tooth more or less). If so, tighten everything down and then rotate engine two turns by using the appropriate tool at the end of the crankshaft. Now, look at flywheel timing marks...... should be dead-on. If dead-on, make sure all bolts are torqued properly. Remember, I believe the Cam bolt torque spec has been increased from 33 foot pounds to 43......... CAUTION: you need to double check this.

If the above procedure did not result with Timing marks aligned properly, try procedure again.

Hope this helps.
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Last edited by AndyBees; June 3rd, 2009 at 20:15.
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Old June 3rd, 2009, 20:14   #3
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Old June 3rd, 2009, 20:27   #4
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thanks and oh yeah im taking my time. the main thing i am always worried about is the cam sproket slipping over time because there is no key between it and the cam shaft. that just seems like a foolish way to make it and only to have one bolt in it instead of 3. sigh, tomarrow is a new day of which i will try this all again . Where would i check for the updated torque spec on the cam sproket? dealer ship? I was thinking of calling up one of the gurus for it. Hopefully they are nice enough to share some of there knowledge. i had actually torqued my cam down to 38 ft/lbs incase my wrench was under, i use two torque wrenches to check one another.

Anyways thanks for the speedy responses and your experience.
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Old June 3rd, 2009, 20:35   #5
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Why did you pull the IP pin before tensioning ?

edit: maybe I read your post wrong, you need to have the pump pinned and the pump sproket bolts loose when tensioing.

Last edited by ultrasparc; June 3rd, 2009 at 20:50.
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Old June 3rd, 2009, 20:45   #6
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Recheck the work sequence - the locks/pins should stay installed until the belt tension is set. I can't tell if you did that or not.

Don't worry about the pulley. The most important thing is that the mating surfaces are clean and smooth. There should be no galling or dirt on any surface, and a few extra ft-lbs won't hurt.

Keys don't do anything to secure a pulley to a shaft - they are designed to fail in systems that can't tolerate extreme shock. Otherwise, they are purely for alignment purposes and bear no load. The taper, cone, whatever you want to call it fitting in use is perfectly strong, and when properly used, is not prone to failure.
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Old June 3rd, 2009, 21:18   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ultrasparc
Why did you pull the IP pin before tensioning ?

edit: maybe I read your post wrong, you need to have the pump pinned and the pump sproket bolts loose when tensioing.
I agree you don't pull the IP pin when tightening the tensioner, but not about loosening pump sprocket bolts -- he's got a 98 Jetta, not sure if you were thinking something else. At any rate, I didn't do any such thing with mine.

Havvok, the half tooth off at the IP pump -- that's where you can try pushing down on the locking pin, it has enough play that it will allow the IP sprocket to move sufficiently to engage the belt.
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Old June 3rd, 2009, 21:25   #8
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oops, my bad

I assumed ALH
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Old June 4th, 2009, 15:25   #9
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Yeah i have a mk3 jetta tdi with the AHU engine.

I took the pin out of the ip because step for in the replacing of the tb calls for the pin to be removed and then immediately followed by tightening of the tensioner.

So here is what ive done, I relocked the cam and ip pump in place and set the crank to tdc. tigten up the tensioner while ip was still locked and the cam bolt lose. After using th spaner wrench on the tension and torqueing it down to 15lbs i then checked crank tdc and it was still at tdc. Now i locked down the cam at 38 lbs (added 5 lbs to the 33 the bently calls for) and check tdc one last time and it was still tdc. Ok so then i unlock everything and turn it 2 revolutions at the crank.

i check to see if everything lined up again. I was off by 3 teeth at the crank (towards the firewall) when the cam and ip were locked in place again.



this just seems wierd. So now what i tried just to see what would happen is i took everything off again and with the cam and ip locked in their respected positions and setting the crank tdc ahead 2 teeth of tdc (towards the radiator) so that when the slack is taken up by the crank it would meet up with everything.

I bolted everything back up and turn the crank another 2 revs and now im off by one tooth (well 2 mm plus a tooth off) towards the radiator. I just cant seem to get these three things to line up well. Im taking it slow and not rushing but im somewhat surprised.

I doubt the cam sproket is slipping on its shaft. Im missing somthing that is probly simple.

is it ok to run it while its one tooth at the fly wheel off? does this offset get worse with each revolution, IE increase in the amount off eventually leading to the meeting of valves to pistons?)

thanks again fellas. Im still enjoying this job, not at the point where i hate life and wana die...not yet anyways .

Last edited by Havokk; June 4th, 2009 at 15:29.
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Old June 4th, 2009, 15:30   #10
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I think by re-pinning the pump you are pulling on the belt a little. Did you try only inserting the cam lock to verify the position?
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Old June 4th, 2009, 15:49   #11
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yes, the cam is the first thing i lock into place with 1 mm feeler gauges under each side. the pin slips in with out any wiggling but the crank ends up being off by that 1 tooth.
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Old June 4th, 2009, 16:23   #12
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I used a big screwdriver to lock the flywheel and the ALH gave me no trouble. I don't see any reason why AHU would be any different.
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Old June 4th, 2009, 17:08   #13
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On my B4 I had a heck of a time getting it all lined up the first time.

I ended up going "backwards" just a tad on the crank so the tp nad some wiggle -room to slip onto the ip sprocket with the pin in. Otherwise I would always be off on the timing mark.
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Old June 4th, 2009, 17:38   #14
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I GOT IT!!!

Ok heres what i did. See the prob was i was always off by some insanely small amount like 2-4 teeth at the fly.

So what i did was this, i loses everything and started over again.

Cam locked in place, ip locked inplace,

Next

ok cam sproket off, tensioner on, I then made sure the belt was wraped around the ip sproket and intermdiate pully. I then looked at the crank which i had set at tdc and the belts location on the crank sproket. i figured my problem was i couldnt get all the slack out of that area of the belt between the intermdiate pully and crank, it would alway skip.

SO where the belt was sitting on the sproket with out any tension on it, i move the belt off and move the sproket towards the firewall freely like one tooth. I place the belt back on and then use 19 mm socket on the crank sproket to turn torwards the radiator to take up the slack and it did. Holding it inplace iwth one hand i then use my left hand to get the cam sproket on and put the bolt in finger tight. now all the slack is entirely at the tensioner.


I check the tdc marks on the fly and it lined right up. I can move the fly a little with a screw driver either side. So with it at TDC i tension the tensioner with the spanner and torqued the bolt to 18 lbs and locktite. I then torqued down the cam.


2 Revolutions later it still meets up and everything, locks goes in with out a fight and the tensioner tit and notch meet still meet each other.

I check the torque on all the bolts and nuts and they are good to go. So is that a good way to take care of the prob?

I tried everything before that, even setting the fly 2 teeth forward or back of tdc to try and compensate for the slipping, moving the ip pump pin to allow the ip to move a little, even sacrificed a good size chunk of my hand to the car gods.

Im going to give it a few more revs to make sure it keeps right on target and a knock or two with the starter.

put the rest of the stuff on too. Thanks everyone. here are some pics :-)





Thats not far off right?




I was surprised when i found this, what cause that kind of damage?

Last edited by Havokk; June 4th, 2009 at 17:57.
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Old June 4th, 2009, 18:13   #15
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Congratulations on the successful TB change! And, those are great pics to prove it!
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