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TDI 101 Got a simple/basic TDI question? Are you a newbie (new to the forums). Feel free to post your question here.

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Old May 1st, 2009, 12:47   #1
Archer
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Lightbulb Chemical cleaning for turbo vs removal?

2000 Golf, 118k, 5 spd, 48 mpg - no mods. New vacuum lines, new timing belt kit, no fault codes (VAG COM), no problems with N75 (nkda), clean intake manifold (EGR too), clean snow screen, new fuel filter, new transmission fluid (Redline MTF), clean MAF, timing in the middle of the upper portion of the graph (70) and the IQ is at 4.0
Limp mode before cleaning intake (overboost) & surging boost after cleaning intake = sticky vanes, carbon build up in the turbo. I have read & researched for weeks on this forum (and others) and come to the conclusion that soot & carbon in the turbo account for many of the problems with similar characteristics being experienced by myself (and other TDi owners).
I have looked around for alternative cleaning methods for a carbon packed turbo and came across the Innotec Turbo Clean Set (UK). Also, another fella stated he used Easy Off oven cleaner (wow). Both of these methods only require disconnecting the down tube from the exhaust side of the turbo, filling the turbo with chemical (literally), actuating the vanes, waiting an hour and rinsing it out. Anyone else have info on this? Links to Innotec, other forum provided. Thx.
http://www.innotecworld.com/default.aspx
http://www.seatcupra.net/forums/showthread.php?t=157275
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Old May 1st, 2009, 12:57   #2
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http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=207374 one report, with a link to another.

You might contact Wallace now that it has been a few months. I wonder mainly about the seals, and potential corrosion on the shaft leading to seal issues.
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Old May 2nd, 2009, 13:24   #3
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I'm very interested in the Innotec kit, but considering that I'm in the US I'm wondering if I could even get it shipped here.

Another approach I am considering as a DIY is this:

EDIT: 4 MAY 09 - DISREGARD THE FOLLOWING - SEE POST #4 BELOW


1. Construct a simple adapter with a nipple to mate to the turbo exhaust output flange. Unbolt the downpipe and hook up the adapter.

2. Take a piece of clear tubing and hook one end to the nipple on the adapter. Form the rest of the tubing into a "U" shape and feed the free end of the "U" tubing up so that its open end is above the level of the exhaust manifold, and secure it temporarily in that position.

3. Get some of this stuff - "Piston Kleen"

4. Using a funnel, gently pour the Piston Kleen down the open end of the clear tubing. Watching the fluid in the tube carefully, make sure that the level in the clear tube does not fill up enough to reach over the bottom edge of the exhaust manifold - you don't want the fluid going above the top level of the turbo and through the manifold into your head. You have now effectively filled the exhaust side of the turbo with the Piston Kleen.

5. Using whatever means you choose - by hand, by MityVac, by vac pump - work the turbo vane actuator numerous times over a couple of hours while the Piston Kleen does its work.

6. Detach the clear tube from the adapter nipple & drain the Piston Kleen. Reattach the clear tube and fill the tube with water for a rinse, again watching the level of the fluid in the tube. Do this several times for a good rinse. Piston Kleen is water soluble so this should work satisfactorily.

7. Remove the adapter. Reattach the downpipe. Take her for a spin and assess the effectiveness, or lack thereof, of your experiment.

DISCLAIMER: THIS IS ALL THEORHETICAL! I HAVE NOT DONE THIS MYSELF AND TAKE NO RESPONSIBILITY FOR ANY DAMAGE YOU MAY DO IF YOU ATTEMPT THIS.

DISCLAIMER #2: I am in no way, shape or form affiliated in any manner with the makers/sellers of the product "Piston Kleen".
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Last edited by visionlogic; May 3rd, 2009 at 07:54.
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Old May 2nd, 2009, 15:50   #4
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If you pour in enough fluid that it rises above the shaft support seal, whatever it is you are using is draining right into the motor...

Pouring ANYTHING into a turbo (compressor or turbine) should never be done.

The only thing I would entertain is a compressor washing using brake cleaner or walnut shells being sprayed into a running turbo (ONLY at idle), aside from that turbo comes off the car!

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Old May 2nd, 2009, 17:27   #5
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OUCH! Thanks for the truth DBW! This neophyte didn't realize the seal wasn't a seal unless under oil pressure.
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Old May 2nd, 2009, 19:43   #6
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labyrinth_seal

The turbo uses a single ring labyrinth seal for both the compressor and the turbine. When the turbo is not running or in a low pressure or low rpm condition the seals don't seal very well if at all.

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Old May 2nd, 2009, 19:48   #7
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Quote:
Labyrinth seals are also found on pistons, which use them to store oil and seal against combustion explosions, as well as on other non-rotating shafts.
Never thought of piston seals as labyrinth seals. I can see it though.
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Old May 2nd, 2009, 20:06   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whitedog
Never thought of piston seals as labyrinth seals. I can see it though.

Rather obvious once it is pointed out though..... Kind of a Duh moment for me...

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Old May 8th, 2009, 12:11   #9
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Chemical turbo cleaners:
You can get the Innotec turbo cleaner from Innotec, but it is expensive- I've got a quote for one kit for $42 plus $124 shipping from England to the USA. Buying 6 kits, the cost drops to $173 plus $160 shipping ( $55.50 per kit) You can also sometimes get it from the internet, ebay.co.uk -I've seen it for $70 US, including shipping.
You not only need to remove the carbon, but also the rust.
Carbon removers: Easy-off or other lye based cleaners, carbolic acid,
Berryman B-9 chem dip, methylene chloride, etc.
Rust removers: muratic acid, ridrust, strongarm penetrating oil, evaporust, etc.
I'd like to chemically clean my turbo too- but am still weighing options.
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Old May 13th, 2009, 08:28   #10
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Default Also, another fella stated he used Easy Off oven cleaner

I found that post- guy said it worked! So I tried some Easy Off Barbecue Cleaner on a really crudded up old spark plug- after 2 hours, rinsed it in warm water- totally removed the carbon!
Then I took the plug, soaked it in a solution of 70% water/ 30% Behr Concrete Cleaner(phosphoric acid) - after 2 hours, some of the rust was gone, so I left it overnight- ALL the rust was gone! Metal was left intact and unaffected with a kind of grey color- I'm guessing this is the phosphor chemically bonding to the steel, which prevents further rust.
Hmm, I'm tempted- especially since I don't see much down side.
What is the worst that can happen? If it doesn't work, I'll still have to pull my turbo and manually clean it.
I'm thinking I pull the exhaust, spray in Easy Off, give it 2 hours, then a warm water rinse, followed by phosphoric acid for the night, then another rinse. Maybe disconnect the turbo oil return line, put a pan under it to see if I get any leakage past the oil seal- if I do, it would drain into my pan, not the crankcase.

Heck, I could even leave the oil and exaust disconnected, briefly start the car to purge anything left in the turbo, then reconnect everything and see if it works!

Any comments out there?
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Old May 13th, 2009, 08:47   #11
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Sounds interesting. I imagine you'll want to actuate the vanes during the "soak" cycles and increase the acid concentration. Will you fabricate a cover to keep the cleaner in?
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Old May 13th, 2009, 09:36   #12
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Default Fabricate a cover

Yes, some kind of simple, chemical-proof cover- maybe some waterproof plastic-coated cardboard or thin sheet of plastic, held on by the existing 3 exhaust bolts and flange. Not needed for the Easy-off- this stuff really clings- but needed for the phosphoric acid. And, yes, actuate the vanes.

Maybe I'll try it tonight if the weather holds- I am so sick and tired of driving a car with no boost.
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Old May 13th, 2009, 13:15   #13
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Please be very cautious if you are dealing with phosphoric acid. It removes grease and oil also. Spilled on flesh will turn everything it can into soap, and if that means eating holes in you to do so, it can.
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Old May 13th, 2009, 17:59   #14
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Default nasty chemicals

Ya, the oven cleaner is prety nasty stuff too- didn't know abt phosphoric acid turning oil -and flesh- into soap. Thanks for the heads up! Makes it even more important to pull the turbo's oil returne line.
Went under the car tonight- got a late start- man, getting to those 3 bolts holding the exhaust flange is going to be a bugger!
I did find that I had a loose engine mount bolt, and that the pipe going from the turbo to the FMIC was scraping the drive shaft, so I fixed those 2 items while I still had light.
Maybe tomorrow I'll don the goggles and gloves and hazard suit, and spray that turbo.
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Old May 14th, 2009, 22:04   #15
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Default Going for it tonight!

Ok, I'm doing it. I've got at MOST 1-2PSI boost @ 3800 rpm- the rest of the time, zero boost. Hooked the actuator tube to my vacuum pump, and the arm moves MAYBE 1/8 inch.
2 hours to remove 3 bolts holding the exhaust onto the turbo. 30 seconds to remove the turbo oil return line.
Don my Hasmat outfit(suit, gloves, goggles) spray the turbo to overflowing w Easy Off Barbecue Cleaner. wait a minute, do it again, reach a finger into the turbo and turn the turbine. Spray again. Climb up top,try the vacuum pump- No improvement to the actuator. try it again, and again. SUCCESS!!!!! it suddenly moved abt 1/2 inch!!!!!
Climb under car, spray, turn turbine w finger, spray again, back up top, try the actuator- WOW!!!! FULL RANGE OF MOVEMENT!!!!!!
Wait 3 hours, make a block-off plate for the turbo using a piece of foam and the exhaust gasket, don hasmat outfit, spray turbo w water from high pressure garden hose to clean out Easy-Off. Try actuator again- still have full range of movement!!!!
Time to fill the turbo w some water/phosphoric acid, leave it overnight, see what happens!!

Last edited by Tom W.; June 17th, 2009 at 18:00.
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