Jatco Transmission problem

DrYankee919

Member
Joined
Apr 23, 2009
Location
Vernon,NJ
TDI
2004 Jetta TDI W/auto trans
Hello,just joined up how you doin? I have a 04 Jetta with the 09A (jatco j506e trans) Have a problem with this problem transmission that I have not seen or read about during my search(which led me here) or my experience with this trans (I am a Landrover Technician and this trans is in the Freelander) I have a code P0722 output speed sensor no signal,I have taken the ohm readings and resistance is off the chart,sensor is in the differential on the INSIDE of transmission VW sells the sensor but will not service it. Tried to sell me rebuilt trans for $5,000 After taking transmission out myself I can't blame them anybody have a teardown procedure for this as manuels for this modle are scarce and what else to look for when I have it apart. Vehicle has 107,000 miles on it,speedo doesn't work right away then jumps to 25mph once you get going transmission is not sure when to shift any input will be greatly appreaciated thanks
 

pruzink

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 25, 2004
Location
Granbury, Texas
TDI
GLS, 2004, silver
Hi there. Send me an email at pruzink@charter.net I have a 68 page VW self study course manual on this transmission. Its not a teardown procedure but you might find it of some use. The manual shows 3 speed sensors. One is "Vehicle Speed Sensor G68" which detects the speed of the parking lock gear & the signal is ussed to 1) calculate vehicle speedm 2) select the gears & 3) Control the lock up torque converter clutch. There is also an "Intermediate Shaft Speed sensor G265" which generates a signal corresponding to the # of teeth on spur gear A at the torque output of planetary gears I & II. The TCM uses this signal to determine the opening & closing times of the clutches (failure will cause harsh gearshifts & stationary decoupling function will be deactivated). Speed Sensor G182 detects the speed of the transmission input shaftby sampling the teeth on the outside of clutch K2. The TCM uses this signal to control torque converter lock-up clutch & calculate slippage of the torque converter lockup clutch.
 

CoolAirVw

Vendor
Joined
Nov 9, 2005
Location
Kansas City Missouri
TDI
Jetta
First off, there is a myriad of mistakes that could be made doing this. I cant remember all of them to guide you through but I'm sure since your a landrover mechanic certainly you can do it.

Unfortunatly the sensor you need requires splitting the case to fix it.

All you really need to do is split the case with the trans on the bench with the bellhousing facing up. The pump and stuff should stay put and as long as you don't pull any of the componants up, then you wont have to worry. You will need to lift off the differential, but it will sit right back down, in it's bearing, without any problems.

Here's a pic of the trans with the bell removed.





Below is a pic after I lifted out the differential. The output speed sensor (g68) is the one under the gear.





Heres a closer pic.




You'll have access to the filter while your in there. So you get a once in a lifetime opportunity to change the filter!

Probably would be a good idea to change the fluid temp sensor and the G265 and G182 also.

Here's the G265 behind the back cover. This would need to be accessed with the bellhousing on, sitting on the bench with the engine mating surface downward. This one might even be changeable in the car, but I've never had opportunity to try. This one could get a guy in alot of trouble if the clutch drums moved out and you didn't get them all the way back in. On the bench its probably not an issue though, because gravity will hold everything down.



If I remember correctly right there below the sensor is an O-ring that must be there to seal against the cover. Make sure its in there before you put the cover back on. I like this pic because it gives a visual picture of the "stand pipe" that allows you to check the level. Its the pipe right below the O-ring.

Here's a close up of the sensor.

 
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joetdi

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 8, 2008
Location
Midwest
TDI
2-2002 Jettas W/Auto
I have seen many problems with the sensors in this transmission. I believe I have fixed four now in the past year. All were due to sensor failure. The best thing to do is replace all of the sensors and fluid temp sensor (fluid temp sensor part of wire harness) also. You also want to replace the wire harness. I only say this due to the work required to get to these things. Joe
 

bluesmoker

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 7, 2006
Location
Maple Ridge, B.C.
TDI
2004 pd 5 speed tip
DrYankee919 said:
Hello,just joined up how you doin? I have a 04 Jetta with the 09A (jatco j506e trans) Have a problem with this problem transmission that I have not seen or read about during my search(which led me here) or my experience with this trans (I am a Landrover Technician and this trans is in the Freelander) I have a code P0722 output speed sensor no signal,I have taken the ohm readings and resistance is off the chart,sensor is in the differential on the INSIDE of transmission VW sells the sensor but will not service it. Tried to sell me rebuilt trans for $5,000 After taking transmission out myself I can't blame them anybody have a teardown procedure for this as manuels for this modle are scarce and what else to look for when I have it apart. Vehicle has 107,000 miles on it,speedo doesn't work right away then jumps to 25mph once you get going transmission is not sure when to shift any input will be greatly appreaciated thanks

exactly the same problem with our 2004 jatco, it turned out to be a faulty TCM (transmission contol module) the stealer replaced it under warranty
 

CoolAirVw

Vendor
Joined
Nov 9, 2005
Location
Kansas City Missouri
TDI
Jetta
bluesmoker said:
exactly the same problem with our 2004 jatco, it turned out to be a faulty TCM (transmission contol module) the stealer replaced it under warranty
He has ohm checked the sensor and it's open, so its probably not the tcm.
 

DrYankee919

Member
Joined
Apr 23, 2009
Location
Vernon,NJ
TDI
2004 Jetta TDI W/auto trans
Thank you so much for the great information this is just the place I was hoping to find up to now finding information about this transmission was like tryin to find the dead sea scrolls I will let you know how I make out thanks again
 

tochtli83

Banned
Joined
Aug 30, 2006
Location
The Dirty South
TDI
2003 TDi
I'm gonna revive this one, as I'm working on a friend's car, and it just threw a 00281 code for the speed sensor. She was in for something completely different, but electronic as well. It's not a TDI, and I'm auto-trans retarded


2002 Jetta 1.8T Engine AWP: 137,000 miles
9A 5-speed tiptronic transmissionSo, this is a friend's car. I should first note that it had a bunch of electrical problems like:
1) Door locks would lock and unlock while driving
2) Car would turn itself off
3) Radio would turn itself off
4) VAG-COM would intermittently disconnect while plugged in.
I swapped out the ignition switch, the 101 relay, and the auto trans park relay. I drove it for a few days. No problems whatsoever.
I did notice a mouse had been living in the rain-tray area, but I inspected all the wires from there to the battery tray, and saw no chewed wires anywhere.
Anyway, after doing all the electrical work, I then did the timing belt on it, as it was waaay past due. Again, the car ran great with no problems (codes), but there were notable rough shifts from 1st to second when cold. It got better when warm, so I just figured dirty fluid.


She comes to pick up the car. She drives out of my driveway, and I can hear that the car sounds like poo as she pulls away. She calls 4 minutes later saying that the car is not running right, it's shifting REAALLLY hard and the CEL is on.
Here is the code I pulled up:

Saturday,11,July,2009,23:18:46:39225
VCDS Version: Release 805.3
Address 02: Auto Trans
Control Module Part Number: 09A 927 750 T
Component and/or Version: AG5 Getriebe 09A 0162
Software Coding:
Work Shop Code:
1 Fault Found:
00281 - Vehicle Speed Sensor (G68)
03-10 - No Signal - Intermittent

That the G68 is showing fault is worrying me (car has 137k on it), as does the fact that there is no trans coding or workshop code. I don't know k-rap about about auto transmissions.

How does one check the resistance on the sensor? I only have a Bentley, and I can't seem to find info on testing the sensors in it.

Thanks
 

CoolAirVw

Vendor
Joined
Nov 9, 2005
Location
Kansas City Missouri
TDI
Jetta
tochtli83 said:
So, this is a friend's car. I should first note that it had a bunch of electrical problems....
Are these problems are gone now, after the work you did?? Does the speedo quit when this happens? Also where are you located?

I tried to get wire colors for you to ohm check at the trans, but, my info shows 01M info on the wire schematic :mad: !!

What you might want to do first is watch data group 1, field 1 (Vehicle speed) and group 7, field 4 G68 (Vehicle speed sensor). I dont know if these two are different. I assume they would be the same (Let us know). Graph them, while driving and then get a screen capture as the car starts acting up.

The ohms reading on the G68 should be 400-600 ohms. From the computer it should be pins 35 to 36. This should be right for 09A.

But... as I've said before, an ohms check on a intermittant problem is not conclusive. If it checks good it could still be bad, if it checks bad, then its problably bad.

Obviously before condeming the sensor (requiring trans removal and disassembly), make absolutely sure that its not a connection problem.
 
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tochtli83

Banned
Joined
Aug 30, 2006
Location
The Dirty South
TDI
2003 TDi
CoolAirVw said:
Are these problems are gone now, after the work you did?? Does the speedo quit when this happens? Also where are you located?
I'm in Nashville, TN

The problems are now gone. Because there were no codes reported for any of the other problems, I think the problem was in the ignition switch or the relays. Had it been anywhere else (comfort or convenience), I'm pretty sure some codes would have been reported.

The speedo had worked just fine. Although, last night when I pulled out, it felt like it was a manual with a slipping clutch. The engine revved up, and I pulled out of my driveway, but there seemed to be a delay in registering speed or actually moving. I'll have to run the data groups.

In the 60+ miles I drove it after replacing the ignition switch and the relays, I had absolutely no problems.

I still think the mouse that was living under the raintray chewed on something and I missed it. The mouse had neatly arranged a load of dog food along the firewall insulation. The food originally came from the trunk, where the girl had spilled a bag of food and never cleaned it up (slob).

I'm hoping that the mouse exited the vehicle and then stored it in the firewall. I can't see how it could have gone from the trunk, thru the cabin, and then into the firewall. There seems to be no way to do that. I really don't want to have to pull the dash and inspect every single harness for chewed wires. I can handle the engine bay, but not the whole car.

I'd hate to have to tell this girl that her car needs a new transmission, as I'm not competent to replace it or the parts if the VSS is bad.

I may try a used TCM, if I can find the right code and see if that works. Seems like I've found a few threads here, on Fourtitude, and Vortex about people having similar problems that were solved with a TCM. Easier to try that than replace a tranny.
 

tochtli83

Banned
Joined
Aug 30, 2006
Location
The Dirty South
TDI
2003 TDi
So, I ran the tests in the measuring blocks. Here's what I came up with.

When you first start the car, it studders for a few seconds, and then clears up. I had attributed that to a torn EVAP hose, but who knows now.

When you begin to drive it, it feels like a slipping clutch. From 0-10 MPH, there is no speed reading, either in VAG--COM or on the speedometer. After that, it feels like the "clutch" stops slipping, and the car reads speed in both VAGCOM and on the dash, and will read speed back down to zero MPH.

If you're easy on the pedal, it will shift easily thru all the gears. If you jam the pedal, it will go bonkers and shift like poo.

Something else worth noting: there is no software coding for the transmission, nor a workshop code. This is odd. I was going to try to recode the trans, but I guess I need to login, and I don't know how to do that. I assume I'd need a VW shop code?

I did the auto trans basic setting adaptation thru VAGCOM (http://www.ross-tech.com/vag-com/cars/autotrans.html) and it still does the same thing.

Would a bad sensor only fail at low speeds? Seems kind of odd that it would work fine after the car started moving. Like, there was a problem with poor current running thru the wires, or incorrect resistance.

I'll check the resistivity thru the harness and see what I find, but I'm really wondering about the TCM, and the lack of coding (software or workshop).

Any thoughts are appreciated.
 

CoolAirVw

Vendor
Joined
Nov 9, 2005
Location
Kansas City Missouri
TDI
Jetta
tochtli83 said:
When you begin to drive it, it feels like a slipping clutch. From 0-10 MPH, there is no speed reading, either in VAG--COM or on the speedometer. After that, it feels like the "clutch" stops slipping, and the car reads speed in both VAGCOM and on the dash, and will read speed back down to zero MPH.
At the point where the speedo starts working is that when the code reoccurs? If you dont know, then clear the code and drive it again.

tochtli83 said:
... it feels like a slipping clutch....
I would assume no upshift to 2nd, if there was no VSS reading. Is this what your saying?

tochtli83 said:
Would a bad sensor only fail at low speeds? Seems kind of odd that it would work fine after the car started moving. Like, there was a problem with poor current running thru the wires, or incorrect resistance.
I would theorize that the computer notices the missing speed reading then substitues an reading based on another sensor, to make the car driveable.

tochtli83 said:
If you jam the pedal, it will go bonkers and shift like poo.
If it substitutes a calculated value based off the input speed sensor, like some Fords do when they have a VSS code, then you can expect slightly erratic gear changes. Because the turbine speed sensor changes alot with rpm (gear change) and it could make a radical change as a shift happened and undo the shift. (making it shift back down, and then of course the turbine speed changes again, so it shifts back up, then of course the turbine speed changes again so it shifts back down...... you get my point?
 
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tochtli83

Banned
Joined
Aug 30, 2006
Location
The Dirty South
TDI
2003 TDi
---At the point where the speedo starts working is that when the code reoccurs? If you dont know, then clear the code and drive it again.---

That's hard to say. I can't really read the log in VAGCOM, and read the codes at the same time. Regardless, I think the code appears the moment I put it in gear.

---I would assume no upshift to 2nd, if there was no VSS reading. Is this what your saying?----

I guess. I actually feels more like, if I push the pedal to the floor, the engine will rev up as high as it wants to, and the car won't increase in speed at all. It feels more like, there's no fluid in the converter or something. Again, auto-trans retarded.

---I would theorize that the computer notices the missing speed reading then substitues an reading based on another sensor, to make the car driveable.---

Makes sense. I guess there are 2 speed sensors on this trans, right?

---If it substitutes a calculated value based off the input speed sensor, like some Fords do when they have a VSS code, then you can expect slightly erratic gear changes. Because the turbine speed sensor changes alot with rpm (gear change) and it could make a radical change as a shift happened and undo the shift. (making it shift back down, and then of course the turbine speed changes again, so it shifts back up, then of course the turbine speed changes again so it shifts back down...... you get my point?---

Again, that makes sense. It just seems more than anything, that the shifts are just hard and off of the correct RPMs. But, like I said, once you're going, the shifts seem much better. This is especially true if you go easy on the pedal.

My big question is, why would there be no workshop code or software coding? I haven't worked on too many auto transmissions. Is this normal?
 

CoolAirVw

Vendor
Joined
Nov 9, 2005
Location
Kansas City Missouri
TDI
Jetta
tochtli83 said:
That's hard to say. I can't really read the log in VAGCOM, and read the codes at the same time. Regardless, I think the code appears the moment I put it in gear.
All you would have to do is clear the code, check it immediatly, to see if it reoccurs. If it does not, then drive it and immediatly when the speedo starts working then check codes again.

tochtli83Makes sense. I guess there are 2 speed sensors on this trans said:
Three, see pictures above.

tochtli83 said:
My big question is, why would there be no workshop code or software coding? I haven't worked on too many auto transmissions. Is this normal?
Thats a legitimate question. Someone with a similar car, and vag-com should check to see if their car is the same. But... I dont think its relevant to your problem.

Do you need ohm check information for the sensor?
 
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tochtli83

Banned
Joined
Aug 30, 2006
Location
The Dirty South
TDI
2003 TDi
FINAL UPDATE

Hopefully, someone else might find this thread useful.

I went to my neighbor's junk-yard, and he happened to have the exact same year, and engine code vehicle in a Golf.

The TCM was still in the raintray, but had been exposed to the elements (missing raincover) for at least 8 months. He didn't charge me for it initially. He let me borrow it.

So, I borrowed the computer from him, and tried it on this girl's car. It fixed the problems.


Something to note however: I disconnected the battery and then the TCM and left them disconnected for about 1 week. After installing the new (used) TCM, I ran the Throttle Body adaptation, and the Trans-Throttle adaptation (see Ross-Tech). I then started the car, and it has shifted fine ever since.

I should note that I had NOT run the TB adapation or Trans adaptation after I originally did all of the electrical repairs. The car was down with the battery out for some time. But, after I put it all back together, it ran fine with no codes. I didn't hammer on the car though, and this girl seems to. After it threw the code, I did disconnect the battery, reconnect, and run the adaptations. It still did the same thing (VSS code, and hard shifting).

So, bottom line: I'm 90-95% certain that the TCM was bad, but I can't rule out the possibility that all I needed to do was disconnect the TCM for a couple of hours, reconnect it along with the battery, and run the adaptations. Admittedly, I could test it but putting the old TCM back in; but given all the crap that I've gone thru with this car, I don't want to tempt fate.

As of today, the car is running fine and getting the hell out of my yard!

P.S. ALL of the hard shifts are gone: even the subtle hard-shift between 1st and 2nd that I noted before it threw the code. Shifts like a dream now.
 
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