Should I go Mobil 1 TDI for my PD?

Anybody out there using TDT on their BRM? I am willing to do anything to avoid the cam/follower failure. This seems to be the "it" oil for the PD now.

there is no proof that using this oil will prevent a failure, or using 505.01/507 oil will cause a failure.

2footbraker said:

Anybody out there using TDT on their BRM? I am willing to do anything to avoid the cam/follower failure. This seems to be the "it" oil for the PD now.

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Regular oil analysis should be done to catch the problem early if does start to happen.

I would stick with the approved oils. If you want to try to improve your odds, you might install a DG bypass filter and/or shorter OC intervals.

The failure rate is still fairly low, but the PD engine population is still relatively young in miles, so the failure rate could rise or even fall.

Bill

Yeah, the bypass filter would probably be more beneficial than the TDT oil. Thanks.

TDT is one of the best things you can do to prevent wear in a PD motor. Look at all the oil analysis reports from multiple users. I will email you mine if you would like. Dont listen to the oil sheeple. If your cam/followers are going to fail, they will no matter what oil you use, if its a manufacturing or design defect.

I'm switching to TDT next OCI after seeing the recent UOA's that have been posted.

Let me shed some facts on the cam failures, since I was one of the techs doing the job on Steves car..

Steve used 505.01 oil and had OCI of 10000 miles, he did all his maint himself, filters, oil, etc., the man takes care of his car, he does not skimp any where.

Steve has a DG by-pass filter on his car for 3000+ miles.

The wear has shown up on just the #2+#3 Exhaust lobes and followers, not the injector lobes.

At less then 40000 miles his has just recently shown up wear on the cam lobes, Damage is minimum now.

An OA IS NOT A for-sure sign for the failing cam/followers. a few people have had high FE count-but no wear problems. Others have had normal FE counts and still had cam/follower problems.

We have not determined what is causing the failures...Yet..

Steves car has broken the mold once again by being one of the lowest mileage failures yet. We suspect the failure is due to his type of driving or his mods imposing additional loads on the engine by the extra power output.

We have concluded that the #2 and #3 cylinders are the first to go, being the middle cylinder and being the exhaust side only showing, it is probably heat stress related or oil starvation.

We have gathered GOOD precise data from his failure that can be applied to the theories out there.

We could deduct that if we reduce OCI's we will mask/prolong failures.

I am going to press ahead and remove my VC--after 92000 miles on an RC2, 506.01 ELF CRV NON spec oil, did I mention its a 0-30W in use in Texas?

I have monitored my FE levels by doing an OA EVERY OC. my FE has never exceeded 75PPM on a 15000 OCI.

The experts stated that I was insane for running an extended OCI, for using CRV oil, for running 506 in the Texas heat..

We will have almost all the data I need to draw a solid conclusion as to what is causing the failures and what to do to mask them..When I remove my VC and do the inspection.

I do think that driver/operating environment is more important then oil type and interval..

More to follow..

From reading a UK VW forum, I would have to agree. It seems that the pd cam failures across the pond are more common on the pd150s, less so on the pd130s and much less common on the pd100s.

2footbraker said:

From reading a UK VW forum, I would have to agree. It seems that the pd cam failures across the pond are more common on the pd150s, less so on the pd130s and much less common on the pd100s.

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That would seem to make the power output to blame if true.

Now, I'm wondering since I've never been chipped if it might not be a bad idea not to get chipped. I could kinda be the 'control' engine that has always had 5k intervals with 505.01, and hasn't had the "stress" of putting out more power.

Good thoughts V, you will get your PD to last forever..

Power output can't be the sole factor. In fact, I don't see how it could be related directly. The engine's crankshaft output power does not get transmitted through the valve train.

There may be some indirect relationships. Since we are talking about a 4 banger engine, the bangs are bigger with more power output, which increases the pulsations. But if ANYthing is going to be affected by this, it's the timing belt, not the lifter-to-cam-lobe relationship. And that's only if the driver uses the extra power a lot.

The other influencing factor might be that the higher power output puts more soot in the oil, and possibly more fuel dilution, but again, only if the driver uses the extra power a lot.

At some point I should take the valve cover off mine (BRM) and have a look. 216,000 km on it, chipped, 505.01 5w40 is all it has ever seen, and I tow a trailer a lot. If the pulsations or soot theories hold any water, the extra load from trailer towing ought to make mine a worst case. (Knock on wood, but at least from the way it sounds and drives, there's not a hint of trouble!)

GoFaster said:

There may be some indirect relationships. Since we are talking about a 4 banger engine, the bangs are bigger with more power output, which increases the pulsations. But if ANYthing is going to be affected by this, it's the timing belt, not the lifter-to-cam-lobe relationship. And that's only if the driver uses the extra power a lot.

The other influencing factor might be that the higher power output puts more soot in the oil, and possibly more fuel dilution, but again, only if the driver uses the extra power a lot.

At some point I should take the valve cover off mine (BRM) and have a look. 216,000 km on it, chipped, 505.01 5w40 is all it has ever seen, and I tow a trailer a lot. If the pulsations or soot theories hold any water, the extra load from trailer towing ought to make mine a worst case. (Knock on wood, but at least from the way it sounds and drives, there's not a hint of trouble!)

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I was just speaking hypothetically based off what 2foot said...

You really should have a look, the results could possibly be helpful.

It really would be nice to be able to pinpoint what is causing the cam issue.

V, I am thinkin gbetween Steves failure and having a look at mine this week, we should have some solid data to suggest a possible failure analysis as well as a preventative plan of action..

We will figure it out...

Great stuff Randy...

And sorry Steve, I guess the hits just keep coming

If a pd is showing counts of 10ppm per 1k miles or greater using VAG oils and they switch to API and reduce counts to 5ppm per 1k miles - what does it mean.

like it or not API oils are outperforming VAG oils 3 to 1
If VAG oils are working for you use them if they are not then consider API CJ4

I'm a believer in TDT.

I checked a PD that had 2 turbo failures and 505.01 at 163K miles and has no wear on the lifters.Mine @ 154K with TDT after 100K is fine too.
Oil starvation maybe an issue BUT the injector lobes would wear out first being positioned higher than the cam lobes and getting less exposure to oil splash.
I would bet money on defective lifters.

Thanks for the info D..

The failures may be due to nothing more than the quality of the heat treating and hardening. The age old, was your car built on Monday or Wednesday kind of thing.

TDT is one of the finest oils mankind has ever made. However, I seriously doubt it's the solution.

I would be much more inclined to believe that the metalurgy is responsible.

I thought we had this fight and all agreed that it was either a cam or lifter defect? That is the idea I am running with. If you have a bad cam and/or lifters they will fail early, regardless of what oil you use (505.01 or TDT, not peanut oil), and if you have a good one the opposite is true as well. I have run Elf 507.00 for most of my engine's life (2 OCI on 505.01 1 on 506.01 and 5 on 507.00) and have been posting UOA's with the iron count on the high side every time. Valve cover has not been off and unless it starts leaking, will nto come off. Just some more data for you to cram in your head when you make your decision

Zero10 said:

I thought we had this fight and all agreed that it was either a cam or lifter defect? That is the idea I am running with. If you have a bad cam and/or lifters they will fail early, regardless of what oil you use (505.01 or TDT, not peanut oil), and if you have a good one the opposite is true as well. I have run Elf 507.00 for most of my engine's life (2 OCI on 505.01 1 on 506.01 and 5 on 507.00) and have been posting UOA's with the iron count on the high side every time. Valve cover has not been off and unless it starts leaking, will nto come off. Just some more data for you to cram in your head when you make your decision

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OK that's all well and good but when I switch to TDT and my Fe counts start trending down by 80%, what am I supposed to believe?

A quote from 'What oil should I use' thread:

If you use an oil that doesn't meet VW 505.01 in a P-D, expect high camshaft and lifter wear in the long term. MOBIL 1 IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH. These engines have unusually high contact pressures between the camshaft and lifters due to the narrow cam lobes forced by the space taken up by the P-D injector mechanism. It is NOT a safe assumption that an oil suitable for large truck engines which also have unit injectors will work in a VW P-D TDI.

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I think it's clearly stated...

GoFaster said:

Power output can't be the sole factor. In fact, I don't see how it could be related directly. The engine's crankshaft output power does not get transmitted through the valve train.

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__. True, Brian but a 150HP engine will accelerate from 1000 to 4500 RPM in 2nd gear a lot quicker than a 100HP engine. And acceleration -- the speed at which that "opening ramp" hits the lifter -- is a big player in whether a valve operates properly and how long it lives for. This is just a wild guess on my part but it could be related to "spec and use" differences.

dhdenney said:

OK that's all well and good but when I switch to TDT and my Fe counts start trending down by 80%, what am I supposed to believe?

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Well, do you believe the only source for iron as a wear metal in your engine is from the camshaft?

The above quote from the "what oil do I use" was intended to refer to Mobil 1 gasoline engine oil. I will go back and clarify this.

I have no doubt whatsoever that there are quite a few engine oils that don't "officially" meet VW 505.01 (and could therefore cause warranty trouble if you use them), but which are actually good enough to protect the engine. The tricky bit is finding them.

Yeah, but you can buy Mobil TDT at Walmart. Good luck finding any 505.01 oil there!

2footbraker said:

Anybody out there using TDT on their BRM? I am willing to do anything to avoid the cam/follower failure. This seems to be the "it" oil for the PD now.

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2footbraker said:

Yeah, but you can buy Mobil TDT at Walmart. Good luck finding any 505.01 oil there!

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what are you looking for: "best" protection or easiest access

does your car consume oil between changes? You can always order a couple of liters extra on-line. My point is that it shouldn't come down to needing oil RIGHT NOW, unless there is a problem with the care, in which case you should fix it.

GoFaster said:

Power output can't be the sole factor. In fact, I don't see how it could be related directly. The engine's crankshaft output power does not get transmitted through the valve train.

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mrGutWrench said:

__. True, Brian but a 150HP engine will accelerate from 1000 to 4500 RPM in 2nd gear a lot quicker than a 100HP engine. And acceleration -- the speed at which that "opening ramp" hits the lifter -- is a big player in whether a valve operates properly and how long it lives for. This is just a wild guess on my part but it could be related to "spec and use" differences.

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Also, doesn't higher fueling correspond to more pressure needed to push the fuel through the injectors, which would need more energy transferred from the cam?

hid3 said:

A quote from 'What oil should I use' thread:


I think it's clearly stated...

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Sorry oil sheep, mobil 1 TDT or delvac is far superior to any 505.01 oil.

Are we to believe that after switching to TDT, a non-505.01 oil, that even though our iron wear is getting cut in half, that there is still some magical extra wear happening because there is not super magic 505.01 additives? Please... think outside the box, I cant believe there are so many closed minds here. 505.01 is nothing special when it comes to AW and EP additives. Might be nice oil, but the TDT and D1 outperforms it easily.

BTW, whacky hid3, there have been cam failures with STRICT 505.01 oil useage since new. Its nothing special.