DSG Auto DMF Failing or Failures Thread

I thought it would be good to bring it into one thread as more and more of these are happening including mine last week at 58096 miles. There are so many to credit with posting so I will limit it to those who have posted pics and also performed the replacement along with the DIY.

Specifically,
Wjdell,Wrenchman30,Crosley,Oilhammer,Txoilburner and Mach1

Symptoms include one, some or all of the following.
1. Scratch or soft grind at cold idle.

2. Rattling noise from transmission area (like pebbles in your tranny) Most everyone has this symptom, for some, you can only hear it when the vehicle is in the air with the skid plate removed, for others like myself it is also noticeable in gear with foot on the brake and when just starting out. This noise can be duplicated at will by keeping foot on the brake and shifting in and out of N to R or N to D. Can also be heard in Park. This noise has also been heard from outside of the vehicle when the DMF is getting close to failure.

3. Clunking or hard shifting into first from second when coming to a stop. Others have also reported clunky/hard shifting in other gears.

4. Excessive engine vibration in gear when stopped. Very noticeable

5. Excessive engine vibration at idle in Park. Very noticeable

6. Excessive vibration while driving. Very noticeable

7. Vibrating noise while shutting down.

8. Rattle sound, like metal lines against each other from under car (this has also been attributed to the fuel line rattle TSB)

Thx to Mach1 who also deals with these, by adding the following, which everyone should keep in mind especially if you are experiencing #4,5&6 above.
When it gets to the point where the engine is shaking, then the DMF is coming apart and its time to pull it apart. The looseness in the flywheel spring/weight assembly gets so loose it is actually moving around and throws the balance off on the engine. Its time!!

Please PM me if you have or had other symptoms directly related to the DMF failing or failure and I will add them here.

Scan of service ticket showing diagnosis and part#'s


Post of updated DMF part# by Wjdell
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=207818

Pics by Crosley showing a cut open DMF
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=228901&highlight=dsg+dmf

These are the threads that enabled me to support my diagnosis along with two excellent DIY's by Crosley and Wrenchman30
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=229258&highlight=dsg+dmf
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=222559&highlight=dsg+dmf
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=230009&highlight=dsg+dmf
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=231266&highlight=dsg+dmf
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=189298
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=229212&highlight=dsg+dmf
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=229205&highlight=dsg+dmf
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=210032&highlight=dsg+dmf
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=208166&highlight=dsg+dmf
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=187281&highlight=dsg+dmf
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=183035&highlight=dsg+dmf
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=222559&page=2&highlight=dmf+dsg

Now for my story...
2006.5 Jetta TDi DSG Auto...code=HXU build date=6/22/2006
build date of car 08/2006
I have a 90mile round trip commute 5 days a week and am in my car for a min of 2hrs a day.

All fluids and filters are changed religiously every 10K by myself using VW only products. At every change interval I run the car while it is in the air and perform a full visual and audio inspection from underneath as preventative maintenance.

40K DSG filter and fluid change performed by me at 41,780 miles using the VAS 6262 tool, Vag-Com, VW DSG fluid, filter, replacement o-ring and drain gasket.

Symptom 1. At roughly 57K miles I started noticing what seemed strange to me as an unusually hard downshift from 2nd to 1st. Prior to this the transmission had always shifted smooth as butter. I started paying close attention to it and noticed at first that it only happened when the vehicle was not up to operating temp. After 4 days (400miles) I noticed that it was starting to do this no matter if the car was warm or cold. In the last 300 or so miles it was becoming more and more pronounced, but for me still only affected gears 1 & 2.

Symptom 2. At approx 57300 miles I began to notice an almost imperceptible rattling noise that can best be explained like two pieces of metal rattling against each other. This noise progressively got worse until it morphed into the next symptom/noise.

Symptom 3. At approx 57500 miles I began to notice an almost imperceptible rattling noise coming from the transmission while in gear idling at a stoplight. At 57600 miles I put the car in the air, pulled the skid plate and was able to verify a rattling noise (pebbles clunking around) coming from the transmission area.

Symptom 4. At approx 57600 miles the vehicle began to display a very noticeable vibration at idle. This vibration was even more pronounced when in gear and at a stop. This vibration progressively worsened until the vehicle was taken into the stealership at 58096 miles.

Symptom 5. From 57600-58000miles the rattling (pebbles clunking around) became progressively worse, going from barely audible to being audible from outside the vehicle. This was positively confirmed by my wife who came out into the garage while I was pulling in and said *** is that noise?

Now as Paul Harvey would say...... The rest of the story.

I dropped her off at the stealership 12/5/08 with the aforementioned issues.

They performed a scan of the vehicle.
**The scan came back clean with no fault codes and a clean bill of health.

**The noise was diagnosed as a noise coming from the transmission area but was deemed as a very NORMAL noise and would not affect the vehicle
**The rough/clunky downshifting from 2nd to 1st was also verified and deemed to be within specs and a normal function of the DSG transmission.

When I asked as to why these things only started happening in the last 1K miles and were getting progressively worse, I was told that the vehicle was reaching it's break in point and this was normal for these vehicles

I then showed them all of the documented symptoms along with pics that I had been able to find here on TDI Club, VWVortex and other places on the internet.

I was told by the Service Manager, Service Advisor, the Senior Tech and one other mechanic that the DSG Automatic does NOT have a DMF furthermore, the Senior Tech told me that he had been on the phone with VW tech line and was told that it was a runability issue and to start with replacing the fuel filter He was told that if it did not fix the problem to replace the Fuel Pump and if that did not work then replace the Injector Pumps

The Service Manager told me that they would replace the fuel filter for $100 and that would more than likely fix the problem...grrrrrrrr... I said not to bother, that I would do it myself for the cost of the $16 dollar filter and 10min of my time. I told them I would report back to them the next morning (Sat). They charged $148 for diagnostic fees and sent me on my way.

After replacing the fuel filter, I took it back to them Sat morning with no change in driveability.

The REST REST of the story.........
Sat 12/6/08 when I brought the vehicle back in the mechanic listened to the noise and said that they were full of shi* and told me to have service write it up again and to leave it.

Monday morning 12/8/08... I received an email from him with the following two pics.

And this one showing 1 1/4" movement 32mm (there should be less than 10mm or none)


Hmmmmmmm very interesting....
1.) why is there a picture of a DMF installed on my car that according to them does not have one?
2.) why is there so much play in said non-existent DMF?

Needless to say a new DMF has been overnighted and will be covered under the Powertrain Warranty. ******Shaking Head****** OHHHHH and before I forget, the Service Writer is still saying that our cars do NOT have a DMF. He is saying that it is a flywheel only not a DMF **LMFAO**

Good info and write up!

Good work! Glad you are getting it resolved. Perhaps a nice printout of the definition of DMF and a pic and one in pieces will show the dumbass dealer guys what it in fact is LOL. Probably not. They won't ever learn. Shame...

Da, you got that done in the nick of time, that DMF was on its way to exploding, sounds like you caught it in time...

I believe everyone that I have changed fluid in has made a good rattling noise. I notice it when I have the pan off and the engine is running, and I am disconnecting the adapter hose, you are right there staring the bellhousing in your face, so you hear it..

When it gets to the point where the engine is shaking, then the DMF is coming apart and its time to pull it apart. The looseness in the flywheel spring/weight assembly gets so loose it is actually moving around and throws the balance off on the engine. Its time!!

Whooooooooooooooooot

Update. Picked her up last night. Observations are:

First, when parts looked up my Vin# in ETKA it showed that I needed the (03G-105266-R) DMF, when parts ordered the (R) version, it arrived as the (03G-105266-BE) DMF. This would support what wjdell said in his thread about the part being superceded. At any rate, my factory DMF was replaced with the (03G-105266-BE) DMF.

1) Night and day difference in the idle while in gear at a stop, very smooth compared to what it had become.

2) Low end power appears to have come back.

3) Shifting is silky smooth through all gears again!

4) Clunk from 2nd - 1st is gone!!!!! Soooooooooooo smooth now!

4) Still have that annoying sound in first gear only... Sounds like when you are in reverse and you get on it a little and it makes that little whirr whirrr gear sound. Only makes this sound in 1st gear

Got another one in today, 70k miles sounds like a bowling ball in a washing machine...

My 09 clunked into first the day I picked it up new. I figured it was a breakin problem. It got better, but I'm not sure if its because I changed my touch on the throttle or it just broke in. Its happened once or twice when I was tired since. Might be able to make it happen if I try. I also noticed after a long trip in town driving that it semed like there was some slack between applying torque and acceleration in the DSG. I hit the throttle differently because again I was tired after a long drive and I figured the fluid was probably thin from heat. Any thoughts on this? Am I paranoid?

da~ I first visited my dealer with shudder complaints and have documentation at 57,58 and 59k miles. The shudders got worse and I eventually started noticing the "loose pebbles". Long story short, VWoA would not hear my argument of symptons and documentation of such before out of warranty and would only offer 20% help because I'm a loyal repeat VW buyer. CRAP! Anyway, $1300 later I have the new part # DMF, no "loose pebbles" noise and my name DMFound.

Ok We have the hard downshift on occasion, 09 with less than 3K. What does DMF stand for ???

Never mind , Dual mass flywheel

Watching this one

Does the DMF to replace the factory one have to be a Stealership item or is there a more trustworthy, quality aftermarket supplier of better quality?

trevor.storey@rogers.com said:

Does the DMF to replace the factory one have to be a Stealership item or is there a more trustworthy, quality aftermarket supplier of better quality?

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Nothing yet available aftermarket for the DSG. I'm not sure I would want one anyway. Imagine how bad a Chinese DSG DMF would be.

If you have an '09 DSG with problems, post them here.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=235168

DMFound said:

da~ I first visited my dealer with shudder complaints and have documentation at 57,58 and 59k miles. The shudders got worse and I eventually started noticing the "loose pebbles". Long story short, VWoA would not hear my argument of symptons and documentation of such before out of warranty and would only offer 20% help because I'm a loyal repeat VW buyer. CRAP! Anyway, $1300 later I have the new part # DMF, no "loose pebbles" noise and my name DMFound.

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Glad that you got it taken care of before it caused additional damage like mine did.
Sorry that they are unwilling to work with you especially since you have documentation? Any other avenues that you can look at? That is very unfortunate that they are taking that stance? The stealership will not stand behind you and fight for you?

da~ I've bought two new vehicles from the dealer but not this TDI, so they didn't really advocate for me. I'll remember them as I'll be buying new again soon. Am exploring legal remedies as we speak. Thanks for sharing your experience on the data base thread that got my attention.

Well, I think I have my first mechanical issue on my TDI...the DSG's DMF. It started quaintly this morning but quickly progressed to something unnerving in about a 6 mile stretch of my daily commute. It started with a light rubbing sound coming from the engine compartment at low speeds. It was a cyclical sound, not constant, and the car felt like it was being dragged down in speed in time with the sound. Then, a couple miles later I started hearing a light rattling when I approached 40mph, but it went away when I coasted. A couple miles later it was a contant rattling at 40mph, and reduced but still noticable when I was coasting. The last mile of my drive to work it got very bad. It now sounds like a rock tumbler and I feel it a bit inside the car. How did it get so bad so fast?

Am I correct in thinking it's the DMF? Do I have a fair chance at getting the TDI 14 miles home without it detonating?

Thanks for the advice!

Vipervnm said:

Well, I think I have my first mechanical issue on my TDI...the DSG's DMF. It started quaintly this morning but quickly progressed to something unnerving in about a 6 mile stretch of my daily commute. It started with a light rubbing sound coming from the engine compartment at low speeds. It was a cyclical sound, not constant, and the car felt like it was being dragged down in speed in time with the sound. Then, a couple miles later I started hearing a light rattling when I approached 40mph, but it went away when I coasted. A couple miles later it was a contant rattling at 40mph, and reduced but still noticable when I was coasting. The last mile of my drive to work it got very bad. It now sounds like a rock tumbler and I feel it a bit inside the car. How did it get so bad so fast?

Am I correct in thinking it's the DMF? Do I have a fair chance at getting the TDI 14 miles home without it detonating?

Thanks for the advice!

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Wow... I have not heard of one going so quickly? if that is indeed what is happening (sounds like it to me). Just by your description I would say you are right to suspect the DMF. But given how quickly yours came on I would personally drive it the 14miles home but would not push it much further than that. Mach, Oilhammer, what say you?

Da~da~da said:

Wow... I have not heard of one going so quickly? if that is indeed what is happening (sounds like it to me). Just by your description I would say you are right to suspect the DMF. But given how quickly yours came on I would personally drive it the 14miles home but would not push it much further than that. Mach, Oilhammer, what say you?

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Thanks for the quick reply. Hmm, maybe I'll drop it off at my parents' house instead (only 9 miles). This really sucks. I just got new tires on Saturday and was really looking forward to a nice road trip in the Jetta this weekend. Looks like I'll be driving the Jeep instead...

Tires, brakes, and possibly flywheel all in a month. Expensive month

Vipervnm said:

Thanks for the quick reply. Hmm, maybe I'll drop it off at my parents' house instead (only 9 miles). This really sucks. I just got new tires on Saturday and was really looking forward to a nice road trip in the Jetta this weekend. Looks like I'll be driving the Jeep instead...

Tires, brakes, and possibly flywheel all in a month. Expensive month

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Remember I drove mine for 1000 miles before having it replaced, however, from what I am hearing, it is a crap shoot and more than likely I just got very lucky. From, what you described, the same thing is happening to you that happened to me only in a very accelerated time frame. Good luck and keep us posted as to what you find out.

Last December the following maintenance was performed:
1) Change DSG DMF - fixed the scratching noise at cold idle.
2) Change the timing belt - some discrepancies about 80k v. 100k; cheaper to pull it in, than to try for 100k and fall short.
3) Change DSG fluid & filter
4) Change engine oil, air filter, and fuel filter
5) Replace rear brake pads & rotors

Yes...expensive month, particularly with xmas! Peace of mind is priceless!

Tony

Da~da~da said:

Remember I drove mine for 1000 miles before having it replaced, however, from what I am hearing, it is a crap shoot and more than likely I just got very lucky. From, what you described, the same thing is happening to you that happened to me only in a very accelerated time frame. Good luck and keep us posted as to what you find out.

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I have an update for the symptoms and a few questions. The sound definitely seems speed related, but not engine speed related. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the DMF attached entirely to the engine like a standard flywheel? Shouldn't I get the sound if I rev the engine? I don't get the sound at all when I'm idling and the vibration doesn't start till 15-20mph no matter what the engine is revving. When I was turning into the driveway it clunked in a way that reminded me of a dry u-joint that's dropped its needle bearings. Tomorrow I'll get the car up on jacks and try and isolate the symptoms better.

After rereading my posts about my symptoms I convinced myself it wasn't the flywheel and drove over to my Jetta. Turns out my latest suspicions were confirmed. The jackasses at BJ's never more than hand tightened the left front wheel's lug nuts when they put my new tires on and I was dumb enough not to have checked them immediately. Two lugs were rattling around behind the plastic covers. I nearly lost a wheel. The first time I ever let someone else touch my Jetta almost cost me big time. The weird dragging feeling was the tire wobbling about and the rock tumbler is obvious. I feel so stupid, angry, and happy. Now I just need to have BJ's pay for a new hub because two holes are nearly stripped. DMF=OK for now. I'm very glad I never went above 20 mph on the way back.

Vipervnm said:

Two lugs were rattling around behind the plastic covers. I nearly lost a wheel.

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Wow. Good catch. Glad you found it before something bad happened.

Vipervnm said:

The sound definitely seems speed related, but not engine speed related. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the DMF attached entirely to the engine like a standard flywheel?

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Just like a standard flywheel.

Speed related is not likely the DMF failure mode.

Vipervnm said:

Shouldn't I get the sound if I rev the engine? I don't get the sound at all when I'm idling and the vibration doesn't start till 15-20mph no matter what the engine is revving.

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Not really...the sound is most evident on a cold (ambient temp) engine.

What you are describing is a speed related issue.

Vipervnm said:

When I was turning into the driveway it clunked in a way that reminded me of a dry u-joint that's dropped its needle bearings. Tomorrow I'll get the car up on jacks and try and isolate the symptoms better.

Click to expand...

More than likely you have a CV joint on it's way out.

Find a vacant parking lot and do low speed figure-8's. You should find one direction that clunks or pops more than another - that should point you towards a side that needs it's CV replaced.

HTH

Tony

Vipervnm said:

I have an update for the symptoms and a few questions. The sound definitely seems speed related, but not engine speed related. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the DMF attached entirely to the engine like a standard flywheel? Shouldn't I get the sound if I rev the engine? I don't get the sound at all when I'm idling and the vibration doesn't start till 15-20mph no matter what the engine is revving. When I was turning into the driveway it clunked in a way that reminded me of a dry u-joint that's dropped its needle bearings. Tomorrow I'll get the car up on jacks and try and isolate the symptoms better.

Click to expand...

BRAVO on continuing to investigate and put your fears to bed great catch on what turned out to be a minor (compared to DMF) failure. Glad that you are ok and that the wheel did not come off while you were driving!

Great job

Had the DMF replaced under warranty at 57998 mi. I started hearing a slight rattle at idle (standing outside the car) @2000 mi earlier that got worse progressively.
The dmf had @20mm of rotational play (I think the spec is 10mm), The plates could be slid radialy 10-15mm stopping w/ a "TINK". Another symptom is a clunk that occurs when the engine comes to a halt at shut down.

Windjammer said:

Nothing yet available aftermarket for the DSG. I'm not sure I would want one anyway. Imagine how bad a Chinese DSG DMF would be.

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HAHAHAH, funny stuff,

glad i read this thread, all these symptoms, rattling, especially when colder, most evident with a drop in rpms's car slightly shakes at idle, are exactly what i have, ive been stumped forever and its like the light at the end of the tunnel!! now... to have my suspicions confirmed before anything breaks, hopefully i can find out tomorow and replace ASAP, thanks tdi club

Hmmm...that is rather unnerving...
I sometimes hear louder than usual rattling sound (almost like loud dieseling) when pulling away in 1st and 2nd when the car is cold. It comes and goes. Would that be the DMF or something else?

Newbie here! Although I have been reading posts occasionally for some time now, I am highly concerned about this DMF failure I am just now reading about.
I have a 2005 Beetle DSG, and I have been hearing that rattling, pebble noise when starting out from idle, to moving in first gear ever since I had ~ 40 to 50 K mi on it. I mistakenly figured it was just a characteristic of the DSG. I now have 121,000 miles on said car, still rattling at take-off, and I guess I am really living on borrowed time. Now I'm scared to even drive my car tomorrow. Looks like $1300+ will be disappearing from my bank account tomorrow.

Are you taking it to a guru, near you?

If not, you should!

Tony

TonyJetta said:

Are you taking it to a guru, near you?

If not, you should!

Tony

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