www.tdiclub.com

Economy - Longevity - Performance
The #1 Source of TDI Information on the Web!
Forums TDIFAQ Articles Links Meets
Orders TDI Club Cards TDIFest 2013 Gone, but not forgotten VAG-Com List Unit Conversions TDIClub Chat Thank You



Go Back   TDIClub Forums > VW TDI Discussion Areas > TDI 101

TDI 101 Got a simple/basic TDI question? Are you a newbie (new to the forums). Feel free to post your question here.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old December 4th, 2008, 16:24   #16
chrisk1500
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Saskatchewan
TDI(s): Jetta TDI
Default

Finally, some answers I can use!

Thanks!
__________________
Sold --> 06 Jetta TDI, M5, skidplate, Frost Heater, Limo tint, Castrol SLX

07 DMAX LT, ext cab, 4x4
chrisk1500 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 4th, 2008, 17:53   #17
nighthawk62
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: BANNED
TDI(s): BANNED
Default

Mine has an oil pan heater that has the grey sealant and to myself looks like it was dealer installed. I found it (to my dismay ) when I removed the belly pan to do an oil change. I figured the cord sticking out the front certainly went to a block heater. It clearly states 250 watts on the pad. Not many watts in a poor location for raw starting power in my opinion. When I talk about raw starting power I am talking about the best situation for having the engine start in the coldest conditions. I have heard many state on here that an oil pan heater is better at reducing engine wear. It is my opinion that this is completely untrue. The most friction/drag and highest wear in a cold engine occurs between the pistons and cylinder walls. Barring neglect of the TB path most engines will die from cylinders wearing and going bad. A pad heater does very little to warm this area of the engine. They are of low wattage placed on an area that has poor capability of transfering any heat to that area. When the oil is warmed (a little) the whole bottom of the aluminum pan becomes a large radiator dissipating the heat very quickly. Air is an insulator so heat from the top of the oil does not readily move upward to the rest of the engine and heat travelling through the sides of the pan is quickly dissipated to the outside air. I left mine plugged in the other day for about 5 hours in -15 degree celcius weather and then took out VagCom and checked the temps. They were truely dissapointing! Clearly some kind of coolant heater is needed but I will certainly not be installing a 1500 or 1000 watt tank heater. I have in the past commented on the majority of people on here that seem to have "Tim Taylor Syndrome". That kind of wattage is completely ridiculous on our tiny engines. At the momment I am putting the bits together to install something more reasonable and will make a post on it when complete. For what it is worth to the OP I believe I could plug that pad heater in on a +30 degree celcius day continuously and not have the oil boil or degrade.
__________________
BANNED
nighthawk62 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 4th, 2008, 19:59   #18
jcrews
Veteran Member
 
jcrews's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Round Rock, TX - VCDS
TDI(s): 2003 Golf
Default

1KW isn't rediculous at all. There's 6L of water in the engine, and after 4 hours it's nearly warmed up. A smaller heater would take a long time to heat up the engine as well as these do.

I think the P&T book has the 750 and 1000W as suitable for up to 150 CID engines. That's 2.5L, so it's an appropriate application. 1500W is just too much current for a typical household outlet.
jcrews is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 4th, 2008, 21:12   #19
mrGutWrench
Veteran Member
 
mrGutWrench's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Wallace, NC
Fuel Economy: 63 MPG/56/47 (2nd tank) '02 Sedab
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dieseldorf
__. MOMMA! I don't care what anybody says - I can run with a fork if I want to! Anybody says I can't I'll hold my breath and stomp my feet!!!!

__________________
MrG, Wallace NC (2002 Jetta, Totalled by drunk, 11/'06) 130K mi in 4 1/2 years/~57 MPG lifetime; New car, '03 Jetta Wagon, CAT, .681 top gear, 170K mi. in 5 1/2 yr, ~53 MPG.
mrGutWrench is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 4th, 2008, 21:16   #20
mrGutWrench
Veteran Member
 
mrGutWrench's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Wallace, NC
Fuel Economy: 63 MPG/56/47 (2nd tank) '02 Sedab
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by nighthawk62
(snip) I have heard many state on here that an oil pan heater is better at reducing engine wear. It is my opinion that this is completely untrue. The most friction/drag and highest wear in a cold engine occurs between the pistons and cylinder walls. (snip)
__. Of course, you're right. And the oil galleries to the cam, rockers, and cylinder head are plugged with almost gellied oil (5w-40 is the best for minimizing this but it's a factor). The entire engine needs to be warmed.
__________________
MrG, Wallace NC (2002 Jetta, Totalled by drunk, 11/'06) 130K mi in 4 1/2 years/~57 MPG lifetime; New car, '03 Jetta Wagon, CAT, .681 top gear, 170K mi. in 5 1/2 yr, ~53 MPG.
mrGutWrench is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 5th, 2008, 17:26   #21
nighthawk62
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: BANNED
TDI(s): BANNED
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrGutWrench
__. Of course, you're right. And the oil galleries to the cam, rockers, and cylinder head are plugged with almost gellied oil (5w-40 is the best for minimizing this but it's a factor). The entire engine needs to be warmed.
A coolant heater also warms the head and prevents gelled oil in the galleries. I have lived in Manitoba (colder that a witch's you know what in the winter) my entire life always running used vehicles and have had no major engine or tranny catastrophies. One camshaft (1980 chev malibu with a 305 - known problem) and one head gasket (1988 Toyota 22RE engine this last sping with 285,000 km) Always ran 5-30 oil and used 300 - 400 watt block heaters in the winter. Changed the oil and filter on time, treated the vehicles with respect and did regular maintenance. Never had had any reason to use an oil pan heater, but since there is one installed I will probably continue to use it in conjunction with the coolant heater.
__________________
BANNED
nighthawk62 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 7th, 2008, 16:24   #22
mrGutWrench
Veteran Member
 
mrGutWrench's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Wallace, NC
Fuel Economy: 63 MPG/56/47 (2nd tank) '02 Sedab
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by nighthawk62
A coolant heater also warms the head and prevents gelled oil in the galleries. (snip)
__. Sorry, NH. That was exactly the point that I was (not very clearly) trying to make. An engine with no heater in the cold is "plugged up" on top and the cam, lifters, cam bearings, rings, etc. are running mostly dry at start up. An engine with a pan heater has warm oil in the bottom of the engine but the top end is still plugged up and running cold. By far the best is a proper block heater in a freeze-plug but the TDI doesn't have these plugs so the external coolant heater is the next best thing. The external coolant heater loses heat through the hoses and doesn't put it direct into the engine like a "block heater" does but the ex. coolant heater is the second best thing by a long way.
__________________
MrG, Wallace NC (2002 Jetta, Totalled by drunk, 11/'06) 130K mi in 4 1/2 years/~57 MPG lifetime; New car, '03 Jetta Wagon, CAT, .681 top gear, 170K mi. in 5 1/2 yr, ~53 MPG.
mrGutWrench is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 7th, 2008, 18:05   #23
bakdoor
Veteran Member
 
bakdoor's Avatar
Default

Ok, I don't want to debate the advantages of a pan heater vs. a coolant heater, but here's my experience: I've had a TDI Frostheater in my '06 almost since new. I set it up on a timer so it kicks on around 5 AM and by the time I'm ready to leave for work, the engine is nice and toasty. Also, the glow plugs don't have to run as long when it's heated like this, and that was a major problem with my '99 Jetta--I went through many GP relays in that car, and anything I can do to make it easier on GPs is going to make them last longer, so that's an added bonus. It starts much easier, warms up faster, and is a whole lot quieter from the get-go.

I'm sure the '06 would start without it, and I'm sure that there is at least some engine wear that occurs at start-up with the Frostheater, but that would be happening even if you didn't have any heater installed. I can't believe that a coolant heater would make start-up wear worse, ya know? And why did VW discontinue oil pan heaters as an option? You can't even order one from your stealership's parts department any more.
Anyway, here's the link:
http://www.frostheater.com/
__________________
Save the polar ice caps...they taste great in margaritas!
2014 Jetta TDI-new addition to the fleet!
2014 Harley Davidson Street Glide-fuel sipper #2
2011 Dodge Ram 2500 CTD-crawler hauler
1994 Jeep Wrangler-Rock Crawler
bakdoor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 7th, 2008, 18:58   #24
mrGutWrench
Veteran Member
 
mrGutWrench's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Wallace, NC
Fuel Economy: 63 MPG/56/47 (2nd tank) '02 Sedab
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bakdoor
(snip) I can't believe that a coolant heater would make start-up wear worse, ya know? (snip)
__. No, no. A coolant heater won't make start-up wear worse. Here's the ranking:

1) (Worst) Cold Engine
2) (Almost as bad) Oil Pan Heater
3) (Much better) External Coolant Heater
4) (A tiny bit better than 3) Block Heater*
5) (Probably about like 4) Parked in a 70 degree (F.) garage

* Not available for a TDI engine.

__. This ranking is my subjective opinion but it's probably not far off.
__________________
MrG, Wallace NC (2002 Jetta, Totalled by drunk, 11/'06) 130K mi in 4 1/2 years/~57 MPG lifetime; New car, '03 Jetta Wagon, CAT, .681 top gear, 170K mi. in 5 1/2 yr, ~53 MPG.
mrGutWrench is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 7th, 2008, 19:11   #25
bakdoor
Veteran Member
 
bakdoor's Avatar
Default

Don't know if you've seen this thread, it's worth a look-see!

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=231964
__________________
Save the polar ice caps...they taste great in margaritas!
2014 Jetta TDI-new addition to the fleet!
2014 Harley Davidson Street Glide-fuel sipper #2
2011 Dodge Ram 2500 CTD-crawler hauler
1994 Jeep Wrangler-Rock Crawler
bakdoor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 15th, 2008, 10:03   #26
chrisk1500
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Saskatchewan
TDI(s): Jetta TDI
Default

Left it plugged in for over 15 hours straight.

No fires, but it certainly didn't do much for the cold start....

Brr....-35 celsius and she gets a little cranky....
__________________
Sold --> 06 Jetta TDI, M5, skidplate, Frost Heater, Limo tint, Castrol SLX

07 DMAX LT, ext cab, 4x4
chrisk1500 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 15th, 2008, 17:13   #27
Brock_from_WI
Veteran Member
 
Brock_from_WI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Green Bay, WI USA
TDI(s): 2003 wagon
Fuel Economy: 62/54/45
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smokerr
Having your oil at a temperature it flows and pumps better (quicker) to all the bearings is the most important. Circulating heater does not help any of that.
While I agree with most of what you said, have you ever measured the oil temps after a coolant heater has run for 3-4 hours? Using a laser thermometer I measured our oil pan at 155F, yes the bottom of the oil pan, I can only guess the oil in there was warmer then that so a coolant heater does warm up the oil as well, along with the rest of the engine.

As others have noted, it not what you heat the engine up with, be it an oil pan, coolant or whatever, anything can fail and potentially cause a fire. A ground fault outlet and inspecting the appliance regularly is the best thing you can do to prevent it.
__________________
Brock - 03 Jetta Wagon GLS, 5 Speed, silver, cold weather package, window tint, euro switch, ventectomy, trailer hitch, TDI heater, scangauge II

Brock_from_WI is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 9th, 2009, 09:51   #28
d-man
Veteran Member
 
d-man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: alberta
TDI(s): 05 jetta PD
Fuel Economy: 50MPG
Default

I leave it plugged in all the time. I installed a Napa pan heater. cost was $80 for the higher quality one. Plus I only plug it in when its -15C or colder.
Last week got down to -38C and there is no way the car would have started if I had not plugged it in, as it was the start was a little rough for the first minute. When I was taking the car to the stealership for oil changes no one said anything about the pan heater I think it could be because its not the 15 dollar cheapo. anyways keep it clean and there should be no problems
d-man is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 10th, 2009, 09:25   #29
WeedWhip
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: HamLake,MN, USA
Fuel Economy: 47.1 mpg ave
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrGutWrench
__. No, no. A coolant heater won't make start-up wear worse. Here's the ranking:

1) (Worst) Cold Engine
2) (Almost as bad) Oil Pan Heater
3) (Much better) External Coolant Heater
4) (A tiny bit better than 3) Block Heater*
5) (Probably about like 4) Parked in a 70 degree (F.) garage

* Not available for a TDI engine.

__. This ranking is my subjective opinion but it's probably not far off.
I agree with MrgutWrench. I have a coolant heater....I think I bought it from Terry that was on this site. I've had the heater for 5 years with no problems. I use a timer set for 2-3 hours before I leave for work. Starts like its summer time . Just don't set it for less than 1 hour....I read that the temp probe will think its warm and you might have starting issue.
__________________

Some kind of whitty and thoughtful quote.
WeedWhip 2003
2003 Golf GLS TDI 4dr indigo blue
WeedWhip is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 10th, 2009, 10:06   #30
XXX_er
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: northern B.C.
TDI(s): 2002 golf
Fuel Economy: 55mpg highway
Default

I think the main thing is you use whatever gets your car started ,an oil pan heater plugged in for 3 hrs at -25 will do the trick for me
XXX_er is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:34.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright - TDIClub Online LTD - 2014
Contact Us | Privacy Statement | Forum Rules | Disclaimer
TDIClub Online Ltd (TDIClub.com) is not affiliated with the VWoA or VWAG and is supported by contributions from viewers like you.
1996 - 2013, All Rights Reserved
Page generated in 0.18864 seconds with 9 queries
[Output: 128.46 Kb. compressed to 106.89 Kb. by saving 21.57 Kb. (16.79%)]