PD Glow Plugs, Steel versus Ceramic?

I seem to have unwittingly encountered some glow plug confusion with PD engined TDIs (A4 and B5.5). I had been carrying Bosch ceramic glow plugs for some time, but they have been hard to purchase lately so I've been buying OE plugs, first from my local dealer and then from another supplier. The OE number I've stocked is N105 916 01.

Today I received some replacement glow plugs from my supplier, in OE boxes, but with the number N105 916 07. I'm told these are the supercession of the N105 906 01 number. When I ordered them I was under the mistaken impression they were going to be fore the BRM engine, but not so. Those are plugs N105 916 04.

Here's a picture of the two BEW/BHW plugs.

The 07 plug is steel, I'm told. I've also heard that using the steel-tipped plug requires an ecu re-flash.

My supplier is in the dark on this, as is my dealer. Any help I can get I'd appreciate. I don't want to sen out the 07 plugs if they're not going to work properly. It also begs the question of whether or not these plugs can be mixed.

There is a TSB on the need to reflash ECMs to use the steel GPs. I posted info on this for the Passats in the B5 forum.

TSB PT01-08-28 came out on Oct 22 2008

ETKA pops up with message warning of the need to reflash.

They must not be installed in cars with NGK plugs.

It also applies to 04 Touareg with 5.0L BKW engine.

Here's the document.

http://pics.tdiclub.com/data/3419/vw_tb_PT01-08-28_1_.pdf

Great info, thank you. I guess I better stock both. The dilemma is going to be whether or not owners know which plugs they have.

IndigoBlueWagon

FYI -
Well, for about two years I have been using steel-tipped Champion #192 glow plugs from NAPA, in my '04 Golf. As they had listed Bosch GP at about $45.00 each and the Champion GP for $13.00 each for my car, but only stocked the Champion #192. The ECU has not been re-flashed, and there have been no issues.

Maybe I need to change back to ceramic?

I have an 05 Jetta with the PD engine and the CEL is on. I met up w/a guy on here (DCELL) whose Vagcom says the fault is 17055 Cylinder 1 Glow Plug Circuit (Q10): Electrical Fault. When he metered the plugs, the one on the left registered ok but the other three had zero resistivity.

Anyway, the plan was to buy a new set of plugs, but he was unsure of what I should order because of the whole ceramic vs steel thing, so I'm trying to figure that out here. Is this ECU flashing thing something that can be done at home if I do steel? I assume I have ceramic plugs now in this car (plugs have not been changed previously)? Can I just order those to avoid the ecu thing?

Just confused as to how to proceed/what to order. Also concerned about the ceramic ones breaking off during removal--obviously the person helping me doesn't want to be held responsible! I am not very mechanically inclined but have another friend who is, just isn't a TDI person.

The ceramic plugs are a bit more fragile, but not using them because of this is unwarranted. If they are handled with moderate care and installed properly, there will be no issue.

The ceramic plugs require a much shorter glow period to provide the same heat. They're pricey, but the short glow time is nice.

I had a call by a club member who replaced his ceramic plugs with steel ones without a reflash. He was having poor starting problems, and is kicking himself for throwing out 3 perfectly good $25 plugs. I have no doubt that the steel plugs insufficiently heat the head when given the duty cycle for the faster glow ceramic plugs.

Thanks aNUT, and after reading that I thought I'd just get ceramic. But tdiparts.com and World Impex seem to be out/not have them. I called a local dealer and based on my VIN they told me the right part number is the 07 one above!! I asked about steel/ceramic and the guy was clueless. Is VW just going to switch everyone to steel now? BTW they want $48 per steel GP. Autozone and NAPA are listing an Autolite 1116 for about half that price. Maybe I should switch em all to steel and hope it runs w/o the ecu flash.

1. Anyone know another place to purchase the ceramic ones?
2. Is that programming thing something you do w/Vagcom or a different tool? Sorry for my ignorance here. I hate to think I have to pay a dealer to replace these just because they no longer carry the originals and have to do some reprogramming as a result.

I'm starting to wonder if I should just forget it and hope it continues to start, but at some point it'll have to be fixed. Getting readings of 0.2 0 0 0 makes me think the readings aren't right, even though we used that same ground point where we got the 0.2. It is getting cold now...

For $200 rental ($6000 deposit) you can get the VW equipment to reflash the ECM. +$20 for the flash CD (which hasn't been published yet as I enquired today).
Or
The other route is buy a $495+shipping cable, and (in theory) buy an internet download reflash from eBahn (Bentley Publishers) for an unknown cost. Suggestion is high-speed, reliable hard-wired internet service that won't get interrupted in the middle of the reflash.

Letting a dealer do this reflash might work out cheaper.

From this thread it seams that steel plugs require a longer glow time than the ceramic. From having read other threads I know it is supposed to be possible to use Vag-Com to increase the glow time on the plugs. Why would a person not just do this instead of reflashing the ECU?

Here is my recent experience with this issue. I have a 04 jetta pd engine 3 out of 4 glow plugs were bad. I replace all 4 with the 07 steel tip gp's without flashing the ecm. After a couple engine starts all 4 new glow plugs burned out 0 resistance. I also noticed that the 07 steel tip gp's also have 5v stamped on them after the part number. I looked at some alh glow plugs and they have 11v stamped on them after the part number. I think the new steel tip glow plugs require lower voltage and that is why the 4 new glow plugs burned out after 2 or 3 engine starts. I took the car to the dealer today and had the car ecm reflashed for the glow plugs and had a new key programmed. According to the service bulletin if you have a tune in the car it will be erased. After driving the car the tune still seems to be there. Another odd thing is the check engine lite is off but I know all 4 glow plugs are burned out since I just checked them the day before. My vendor also told me he checked with several of his sources and the ceramic plugs aren't available.

to clarify, the guy that called me replaced his BEW ceramic plugs with ALH steel plugs, not the new ones.

mtbr297 said:

Here is my recent experience with this issue. I have a 04 jetta pd engine 3 out of 4 glow plugs were bad. I replace all 4 with the 07 steel tip gp's without flashing the ecm. After a couple engine starts all 4 new glow plugs burned out 0 resistance. I also noticed that the 07 steel tip gp's also have 5v stamped on them after the part number. I looked at some alh glow plugs and they have 11v stamped on them after the part number. I think the new steel tip glow plugs require lower voltage and that is why the 4 new glow plugs burned out after 2 or 3 engine starts. I took the car to the dealer today and had the car ecm reflashed for the glow plugs and had a new key programmed. According to the service bulletin if you have a tune in the car it will be erased. After driving the car the tune still seems to be there. Another odd thing is the check engine lite is off but I know all 4 glow plugs are burned out since I just checked them the day before. My vendor also told me he checked with several of his sources and the ceramic plugs aren't available.

Click to expand...

The ceramic plugs are 5V as well, this is nothing new. These steel plugs are apparently completely different than the ALH steel plugs, and all plugs for the PD are 5V.

The new steel plugs may use some kind of PWM power control or something. Changing the voltage would be very difficult (unless I completely mis-understand how the glow plug module works on the PDs)

mctdi- maybe I'm confused- is your 04 a pd?

MoGolf- Maybe amy should just print out that document and take it with her. Seems like the dealer may actually be the lower-cost option here if she decides to switch to steel.

Amy- I'm glad this thread is here- I'm getting quite the education. I just wish your car was a couple years older!

DCELL said:

mctdi- maybe I'm confused- is your 04 a pd?

Click to expand...

Yes it is an '04 PD.

This has no bearing onyour ALH car.

I extend time is for the ALH and not the BEW/BRM cars.

nighthawk62 said:

From this thread it seams that steel plugs require a longer glow time than the ceramic. From having read other threads I know it is supposed to be possible to use Vag-Com to increase the glow time on the plugs. Why would a person not just do this instead of reflashing the ECU?

Click to expand...

Other than the above comment I have nothing else to add. I've only changed one plug in a PD to date.

Amy_D said:

Also concerned about the ceramic ones breaking off during removal--obviously the person helping me doesn't want to be held responsible! I am not very mechanically inclined but have another friend who is, just isn't a TDI person.

Click to expand...

FYI -

When I replaced the 1st bad glow plug on my car, I had droped it. The ceramic tip hit the grauge floor. Did not break.

Zero10 said:

The new steel plugs may use some kind of PWM power control or something. Changing the voltage would be very difficult (unless I completely mis-understand how the glow plug module works on the PDs)

Click to expand...

Then I am at a loss why the 4 I replaced after only a couple starts completely burned out. I did have to replace the coolant temp sensor that was failing after I replaced the glow plugs. Or was it before I changed the glow plugs? I can't remember now.

This is good stuff!! Thanks for all the info.
Does anyone know if the ceramic GP's have been taken out of production and will be replaced by steel one's by default?
I'm not having any issues with my PD but it would be nice to know if I have to plan on steel and a reflash if I do need a replacement.

mtbr297 said:

Here is my recent experience with this issue. I have a 04 jetta pd engine 3 out of 4 glow plugs were bad. I replace all 4 with the 07 steel tip gp's without flashing the ecm. After a couple engine starts all 4 new glow plugs burned out 0 resistance. I also noticed that the 07 steel tip gp's also have 5v stamped on them after the part number. I looked at some alh glow plugs and they have 11v stamped on them after the part number. I think the new steel tip glow plugs require lower voltage and that is why the 4 new glow plugs burned out after 2 or 3 engine starts. I took the car to the dealer today and had the car ecm reflashed for the glow plugs and had a new key programmed. According to the service bulletin if you have a tune in the car it will be erased. After driving the car the tune still seems to be there. Another odd thing is the check engine lite is off but I know all 4 glow plugs are burned out since I just checked them the day before. My vendor also told me he checked with several of his sources and the ceramic plugs aren't available.

Click to expand...

I know for a fact that the ceramic glow plugs are rated for 7.X volts. Its stamped on them.

--Nate

I have RC 2 programming and do not want it written/coded over to stock programming if I need a new GP. I would like to buy a set of the ceramic GPs and keep them if needed. Are these still available?

I would imagine other people, even with stock programming, would like to avoid a dealer reflash, as well.

I just called 1st VW Parts and I was told they had one set of 4 ceramic GPs left. $27 a plug. I was going to buy the set, but the parts guy went to verify stock and he came back to the phone and said that they were the N 105 916 07 (steel) plugs! And that there were none available at any dealer in the USA.

I then called my local VW dealer and was told that they have two of the ceramic GPs on the shelf, so I will go by today and verify this and buy them if they are in fact the N 105 916 01s. They are $45 each.

--Nate

CGK said:

This is good stuff!! Thanks for all the info.
Does anyone know if the ceramic GP's have been taken out of production and will be replaced by steel one's by default?
I'm not having any issues with my PD but it would be nice to know if I have to plan on steel and a reflash if I do need a replacement.

Click to expand...

Yes, no more ceramics. The "07" sufix supercedes the "01" the dealer told me and no more ceramics are available.

--Nate

Here is what I a wondering about: I had one bad one and replaced it with a steel one, not knowing about the change. It turns out I have a second bad one as well. I don't know if I burned out the new one. Can I get just the flash from a dealer while I still have three ceramics then change them myself? I don't feel like paying them for the labor on this.

samspock said:

Here is what I a wondering about: I had one bad one and replaced it with a steel one, not knowing about the change. It turns out I have a second bad one as well. I don't know if I burned out the new one. Can I get just the flash from a dealer while I still have three ceramics then change them myself? I don't feel like paying them for the labor on this.

Click to expand...

Maybe you could change them, but NOT plug in the harness then take it in to have it flashed.

I wonder if the changes in the programming could be done along with a chiptune.

Well the check engine lite came on today, it is a cold morning and the car would only start after prolonged cranking. I replaced the plugs again with the steel tip after I had the car flashed a couple days ago. I have my fingers crossed.

I was lucky. I bought the last two N 105 916 01 ceramic glow plugs Stohlman VW had. The parts jocky verified that the N 105 916 01 was for my VIN (an early '04) and that there would be no more, due to the supercession to the "07" suffex GP. Total came to about $94.50, with tax.

Perhaps Bosch could be contacted about the availability of these. Here is the Bosch number that is on the plug (along with the VW part number):

0250 302 0 002 and there is an "RB3" and a 955 in an oval on the plug as well.

Its marked 7.0 volts. So if the new steelys are 5 V, they will burn out if the ECU reflash is not done, I would imagine.

I just wonder why VW (or Bosch) changed the GP type. Was it problems due to breakage, trashing engines (most likely breakage due to improper GP handling and installation), or are they cheaper to make and inventory?

All I know is that I would be really pi$$ed if I had 1 GP go out, and I took the car to the dealer and was told it would cost $800+ for a new set of GPs and an ECU reflash. VW SHOULD NOT be charging for the reflash.

I also wonder if they will go back to the ceramic plugs due to customer outrage. But the PD sales numbers are so low, I doubt that would happen.

--Nate

This doesn't sound good. While I've always been concerned about the original PD plugs being ceramic (the tip of one was gone inside the engine when replaced last time), I don't want to have to reflash, if I need new plugs when the ceramics are no longer available. I'm also running a tune.

Too bad the new steelies aren't 7.0V.

I unplugged the steel one hoping to save it. If the reflash changes the voltage used from 7v to 5v I would imagine that would be ok until I got them changed. As long as it does not damage anything else in the system I don't care if it kills the ceramic ones left since I would be changing them out soon anyway.

whitedog said:

Maybe you could change them, but NOT plug in the harness then take it in to have it flashed.

I wonder if the changes in the programming could be done along with a chiptune.

Click to expand...