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Go Back   TDIClub Forums > VW TDI Discussion Areas > Alternative Diesel Fuels (Biodiesel, WVO, SVO, BTL, GTL etc)

Alternative Diesel Fuels (Biodiesel, WVO, SVO, BTL, GTL etc) Discussions about alternative fuels for use in our TDI's. This includes biodiesel WVO (Waste Vegetable Oil), SVO (Straight Vegetable Oil), BTL (Biomass to Liquid), GTL (Gas to Liquids) etc. Please note the Fuel Disclaimer.

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Old October 4th, 2008, 11:35   #1
rodneyh1
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Default Biodiesel in Rod's 2009 Jetta

I'm running B100 in my '09 Jetta, and have been since I picked it up a little over a month ago. She had 243 miles and a nearly full tank of petrol diesel when I took delivery, so the first 700 miles are on that. I now have about 2,600 miles and have experienced no problems thus far.

My plan is B100 until the weather gets cooler, an then I'll have to drop down to about B60 thru the winter. It's pretty mild here in Oregon, and that mix worked well in my '86 Jetta the last couple winters.

I will be doing oil analysis through Blackstone Labs every 5,000 miles, and am tenatively planning on oil changes at that same interval. I will stretch this out if everything looks good in the 1st couple analysis. My primary concern is oil dilution and any wear associated with that, but I'll get lots of help / advice from Blackstone.

I'm doing this because I believe in the long-term prospect of biodiesel helping stem man's responsibility for global warming, and the US dependence on foriegn oil. I realize the present impact that biodiesel has on world food supplies, and this really haunts me. As this technology matures, however, the positive impact should far outweigh the negative.

I'm also doing this because I can stomach the financial risk that comes with the possibility of voiding my warranty for fuel related problems. I view a potential loss of a few thousand dollars a small price to pay for something that I truly believe in.

Naysayers are welcome, but please include links to scientific data to support your views.

I've posted to several forums about my experience, but thought I'd try to consolidate in one location. I'll update frequently including mileage, problems, oil analysis, etc.

Rod
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Old October 4th, 2008, 12:36   #2
Rexking414
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Dispite what the liberal media and the government is saying for that matter. Foreign dependence on Oil is not causing high fuel prices, Venezuela not too long ago had fuel at 20 cents a gallon. Even if all our oil came from here, it'd be the same most likely. If you go by any oil refineries in the US you'll see you no trespassing signs, federal property, if you catch my drift.

IIRC, the byproducts being burned when you use Bio-D is what gets in the oil and supposedly causes that properties of the oil not to lubricate as well. THere was a couple studies on here, gonna have to dig it up.

Just a side note, one of the concerns from VW for running b100 in the 09 was that the DPF would clog up from the exhaust from biodiesel. Which is different than petro diesel. Not just the fact from previous years that VW was concerned about standards and contamination.
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Old October 4th, 2008, 14:13   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rexking414
Dispite what the liberal media and the government is saying for that matter. Foreign dependence on Oil is not causing high fuel prices, Venezuela not too long ago had fuel at 20 cents a gallon. Even if all our oil came from here, it'd be the same most likely. If you go by any oil refineries in the US you'll see you no trespassing signs, federal property, if you catch my drift.
Mexico, Venezuela, and other "ultra cheap gas" countries have said ultra cheap fuel because it is extremely subsidized, not because oil is cheap or extracted locally.
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Old October 4th, 2008, 18:37   #4
rodneyh1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rexking414
Dispite what the liberal media and the government is saying for that matter. Foreign dependence on Oil is not causing high fuel prices, Venezuela not too long ago had fuel at 20 cents a gallon. Even if all our oil came from here, it'd be the same most likely. If you go by any oil refineries in the US you'll see you no trespassing signs, federal property, if you catch my drift.

IIRC, the byproducts being burned when you use Bio-D is what gets in the oil and supposedly causes that properties of the oil not to lubricate as well. THere was a couple studies on here, gonna have to dig it up.

Just a side note, one of the concerns from VW for running b100 in the 09 was that the DPF would clog up from the exhaust from biodiesel. Which is different than petro diesel. Not just the fact from previous years that VW was concerned about standards and contamination.
You miss my point (which I wasn't real clear about) on our dependence on foreign oil. I don't care a bit about price. Fact is, I'd love to see diesel and gas north of $5/gallon to start lowering our consumption. This is one area that market forces work very efficiently as we've seen in the last 6 months or so. My concern with foreign oil is "national security", as we feel a need to protect oil supplies around the world.

The oil additive that is most often cited is ZDDP. The concern is that this additive will be displaced by the BD, thus lessening it's effectiveness. This is a real concern, but the oil dilution is a bigger worry to me. The argument is that BD has a higher flash point than petrol diesel, and this in turn leads to more accumulation in the oil than regular diesel. The new emissions system heightens this concern even more, as it is maybe now more likely that unburned fuel gets to the oil (for both BD and PD).

I'm not very concerned about the DPF getting plugged from BD. The particulate emissions are MUCH lower for BD than PD. I believe the regen events to clear the DPF will be much lower with BD. The dealer told me that they could check the regen occurrances when I come in each 10K miles.

Let me make one thing clear. I want this experiment to work, but I'll pull the plug on it if the risk to hurting my vehicle becomes unacceptably high (relative to my already stated high financial pain threshold). I'm constantly looking for new information that either supports or refutes making this work.
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Old October 7th, 2008, 18:42   #5
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You should be fine with 5k intervals.
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Old October 8th, 2008, 13:23   #6
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ZDDP doesn't have as much of a use in engines anymore...it was good additive for bad base oils but base oils have more then matured.

So whoever and wherever that info was pulled was undoubtly from someone who has very little understanding of motor oil. Futhermore ZDDP is also not used as widely because of emissions.
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Old October 9th, 2008, 09:48   #7
markeckley@yahoo.com
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An article in Biodiesel Magazine quoted a study from Fang et. al., saying that use of >B5 might cause engine damage. BD in the crankcase oil seemed to decrease the amount of ZDDP found there.

That's the ONLY study out there 'demonstrating' that use of >B5 is a problem in TDI's. And the study did not demonstrate a thing, but inferred a HUGE thing- engine damage.

Fang's got dookey.
>B5 ain't no thing.
Keep proving it Rod, and so will I.
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Old October 9th, 2008, 11:12   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rodneyh1
You miss my point (which I wasn't real clear about) on our dependence on foreign oil. I don't care a bit about price. Fact is, I'd love to see diesel and gas north of $5/gallon to start lowering our consumption. This is one area that market forces work very efficiently as we've seen in the last 6 months or so. My concern with foreign oil is "national security", as we feel a need to protect oil supplies around the world.

The oil additive that is most often cited is ZDDP. The concern is that this additive will be displaced by the BD, thus lessening it's effectiveness. This is a real concern, but the oil dilution is a bigger worry to me. The argument is that BD has a higher flash point than petrol diesel, and this in turn leads to more accumulation in the oil than regular diesel. The new emissions system heightens this concern even more, as it is maybe now more likely that unburned fuel gets to the oil (for both BD and PD).

I'm not very concerned about the DPF getting plugged from BD. The particulate emissions are MUCH lower for BD than PD. I believe the regen events to clear the DPF will be much lower with BD. The dealer told me that they could check the regen occurrances when I come in each 10K miles.

Let me make one thing clear. I want this experiment to work, but I'll pull the plug on it if the risk to hurting my vehicle becomes unacceptably high (relative to my already stated high financial pain threshold). I'm constantly looking for new information that either supports or refutes making this work.
I'm so flipping happy you want to pay $5 a gallon. I own a home and have to work in another city, and that's a 30-mile one way commute. Unlike you PNW dogooder, my county and cities can't agree on a transit system like TRIMET. If we had a MAX out here, I'd be with you. Facts are your system beats out any other large city's setup (NYC, Boston, DC, Chicago).

I'd switch to biking to a train stop and riding to work *in a heart beat* just to keep miles off the car and enjoy it for longer. But I feel that better than 80% of us can't do that because trolley's and mass transit lines were bought up, decommissioned, and car dealerships put in their place some years back.
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Old October 9th, 2008, 23:53   #9
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I don't remember where I heard it, but I've been told that using synthetic oil eliminates this oil problem. I don't know why it works, but I have 120K on my 2004 using only B100 or B99.9 with synthetic oil. I have never had any problems with my Jetta so far. I don't change to a lower blend for winter, but I live in a mild climate. I use virgin BD not recycled.
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Old October 10th, 2008, 05:45   #10
Thermo1223
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rosycrown
I don't remember where I heard it, but I've been told that using synthetic oil eliminates this oil problem. I don't know why it works, but I have 120K on my 2004 using only B100 or B99.9 with synthetic oil. I have never had any problems with my Jetta so far. I don't change to a lower blend for winter, but I live in a mild climate. I use virgin BD not recycled.
IF you don't already run the correct synthetic oil in a TDI your going to have issues as it stands especially a PD.

They require synthetic oil from the getgo.

Synthetic doesn't elminate the problem though, shorter OCI's and costant oil analysis are your only way to know for sure.
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Old October 11th, 2008, 10:52   #11
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After 3 years of testing my optimum OCI is still 15k. 20K is pushing it a bit. This has not changed as my TDI has aged. Also no fuel pump or injector problems with my 2004.
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Old October 13th, 2008, 08:12   #12
rodneyh1
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Default Mileage Update

Thought I'd put up my 1st real mileage update. I currently have about 3,500 miles and I'm using all commercial B99.
  1. 09/02/08 657 miles 17.0 gal* 38.6 mpg ULSD
  2. 09/16/08 510 miles 14.8 gal* 34.5 mpg B99
  3. 09/22/08 442 miles 12.2 gal 36.2 mpg B99
  4. 09/29/08 510 miles 13.7 gal 37.2 mpg B99
  5. 10/04/08 470 miles 13.0 gal 36.2 mpg B99
  6. 10/11/08 465 miles 13.0 gal 35.8 mpg B99
*Had to add a couple ULSD gallons (accounted for in calc's) to keep from running out.

Overall, my mileage using B99 has been 35.9 mpg, which is 7% less than the 1 tank on ULSD at 38.6. I'll get at least 1 tank of ULSD in the next couple months to continue the comparison, but will keep as much B99 as possible. I'll have to mix in 20-40% ULSD thru the winter, but I'll document that with my periodic updates.

An interesting note: All of the above mileages are calculated. On every fill-up (with the possible exception of the 1st one as I didn't pay attention then), the computer showed mileage 2.0 - 3.5 mpg higher than what I actually got. If this is related to B99, I can't understand how. I'll see if the dealer can "calibrate it" when I go in at 10K.
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Old October 14th, 2008, 00:10   #13
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In the 2006 this is adjustable.
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Old October 14th, 2008, 06:27   #14
Thermo1223
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rosycrown
After 3 years of testing my optimum OCI is still 15k. 20K is pushing it a bit. This has not changed as my TDI has aged. Also no fuel pump or injector problems with my 2004.
Well your certainly ahead of the pack, nice work.

My IP was just weeping a tad when ULSD started coming around but I think my shock treatments of BioD might have had a hand in it as well.
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Old October 14th, 2008, 07:36   #15
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Default Elevation make difference on TDI?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rodneyh1
Thought I'd put up my 1st real mileage update. I currently have about 3,500 miles and I'm using all commercial B99.
  1. 09/02/08 657 miles 17.0 gal* 38.6 mpg ULSD
  2. 09/16/08 510 miles 14.8 gal* 34.5 mpg B99
  3. 09/22/08 442 miles 12.2 gal 36.2 mpg B99
  4. 09/29/08 510 miles 13.7 gal 37.2 mpg B99
  5. 10/04/08 470 miles 13.0 gal 36.2 mpg B99
  6. 10/11/08 465 miles 13.0 gal 35.8 mpg B99
*Had to add a couple ULSD gallons (accounted for in calc's) to keep from running out.

Overall, my mileage using B99 has been 35.9 mpg, which is 7% less than the 1 tank on ULSD at 38.6. I'll get at least 1 tank of ULSD in the next couple months to continue the comparison, but will keep as much B99 as possible. I'll have to mix in 20-40% ULSD thru the winter, but I'll document that with my periodic updates.

An interesting note: All of the above mileages are calculated. On every fill-up (with the possible exception of the 1st one as I didn't pay attention then), the computer showed mileage 2.0 - 3.5 mpg higher than what I actually got. If this is related to B99, I can't understand how. I'll see if the dealer can "calibrate it" when I go in at 10K.
would like to know the average elevation where you are driving and where Neurot was driving... wonder if it has much effect on the '09 TDI and Bio-D use...

just a thought...
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