Good Intercooling

I see many interesting threads about camchafts, turbos etc. great!

But I wants to know a little(much) more about what type of intercooling we should use in our engines.
I see that the most well planned and expensive engine buildups here on this site is using some types of Water-air ICs with a front mounted radiator.
As I see it that type has one big advantage, possible to make shorter pipes/volyme than in a regular FMIC instalation.
But is this type generaly more effective than a air-air IC?

Im my mind I was thinking of an instalation like this:



Please just give your thoughts about this guys. Anything good and bad with water-air and air -air is appreciated!

NOTE. Those questions are menth for a "top gun" TDI 250hp+ on just diesel. Not for dragracing, more circuit racing and a little street driving.

Theo

My thoughts are this...........if you are going to be doing circuit racing what ic'ing systems do the majority of the guys running turbo applications use at tracks use.

TheoSweden said:

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Nice paint skillz..

If it's not for the nihil dipperence in spoolup time I'd sitck with a good FMIC, With water/air you have 2 times effciency drop..

Also all the wild stories about heat soak with FMIC, I don't believe it..

To heatsoak on a hot day you need: HEAT, as the intercooler is in front of the condenser, and then fans suck air from the front to the back with AC on, there's no way that the IC will heat up much due the radiator/condeser

Also, some say when you dirve slow the intercooler will "soak" with heat..

Now for the intercooler to soak, you need again, heat, compressor out temp is proportional to PR, so to heat soak you need plenty of heat, so plenty of boost, can't see how you manage to generate alot of boost, while still driving 30kph? maybe those people must put the handbrake off...

When you have a good FMIC nice in the airflow with enough capacity there imo is no better way of cooling the charge..

Offcourse it also helps to use the compressor in the higher effciency islands..

Having stated all what Rub did if you were only using your car as a drag car then having a water/to air cooler can be a more efficient way of cooling down the charge if you have a large enough water supply/container and the system is sized correctly.....................but this is the opposite of what you need for track/circuit use having the advantage of a constant flow of air available.

The monster fan a friend of mine has for dyno runs can not simulate the air flow / cooling effect you get from being on a track doing a 100mph+!!

I exactly agree with what has been already said.

An A/W... is really a Air/Water to air AGAIN, which i think is VERY often over looked. You're dealing with two different efficencies knocking the total efficiency down lower.
PLUS your adding weight with the water.

Personally, i think a properly designed front mount Air to Air is WAY better.
And until someone shows me a A/W/A charge cooler that does 95% efficency... that's my story and i'm sticking to it !

mojogoes said:

The monster fan a friend of mine has for dyno runs can not simulate the air flow / cooling effect you get from being on a track doing a 100mph+!!

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I've only been to one RR that has a fan capable of simulating that, and I'm not sure it managed it 100%, but it was pretty close. I'm still a firm believer that a well vented FMIC is the best option for daily use, and for simplicity as well.

For circuit racing air-air is better, water to air are really good for drag and short time, after a wile the temperature start to rise especially on slow circuit.
oversize front mount intercooler is the best option, but also if is done for circuit there is the need to install oil cooler too.

devonutopia said:

I've only been to one RR that has a fan capable of simulating that, and I'm not sure it managed it 100%, but it was pretty close. I'm still a firm believer that a well vented FMIC is the best option for daily use, and for simplicity as well.

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Another tuner i know does it in a slightly different way.............the dyno room is more like a sealed cell which has air blown into it which cools the room to what ever temp you require on top of which also has the in front of the ic fan blowing onto it as always..........but don't get me wrong it doesn't quite have the cabability of cooling the room down to real cold winter months it just keeps it cool.

Thanks for your answers guys! It seems very clear that a GOOD FMIC is what I need. And a turbo that operates more effective also. Right now I have a 550x240x65mm intercooler, and it doesnt seem to be enough! Pretty long 2" pipes tough.

//Theo

Mine is more or less the same size though it was actually 70mm where yours is 65mm which mine was also supposed to be and i thought that i would have fitment and space issues.........in fact all the other measurements are the very same but i think the THS 02 ic has slightly been changed a little from when i first bought mine from this company.


Theo yours i think is ample
http://www.thsperformance.co.uk/

TheoSweden said:

Thanks for your answers guys! It seems very clear that a GOOD FMIC is what I need. And a turbo that operates more effective also. Right now I have a 550x240x65mm intercooler, and it doesnt seem to be enough! Pretty long 2" pipes tough.

//Theo

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21" x 9" x 2.5"... My opinion is that's too small, though others would argue otherwise.
And 2" tubing, i'd also say that 2" is way too small, others LOVE to argue otherwise again.

And if you look around for a few more of the other more recent IC piping threads, TDImeister proved that the length is pretty negligable when talking IC piping.

Sorry yes i agree with Scott here about the 2" end/pipes as mine are 2.5" 60mm plus boost piping id is 54mm

I have had good luck with my FMIC in Texas heat with the AC on.

So basicly the same out come as with this thread or it should have been...........drag racing = air/water cool exchanger / every day car or circuite racing fmic!!.........there's nothing else too add.

so what are your guy's thoughts on the pipe SIZE?... I have a FMIC with 2.5 inlet and outlet. My IC to intake manifold pipe is 2.5" inside diamter. My turbo to IC piping is 1.75" inside.

I made my turbo to IC pipe samller because I was told that it is better to have a smaller pipe on the hot side and bigger on the cold side.

BTW my turbo is a 17/52.

orion2.0 said:

so what are your guy's thoughts on the pipe SIZE?... I have a FMIC with 2.5 inlet and outlet. My IC to intake manifold pipe is 2.5" inside diamter. My turbo to IC piping is 1.75" inside.

I made my turbo to IC pipe samller because I was told that it is better to have a smaller pipe on the hot side and bigger on the cold side.

BTW my turbo is a 17/52.

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This is interesting. I will take this into consideration when getting mine made.

Is the point of the smaller pipe by the turbo to keep the pressure higher than using a larger pipe?

Please elaborate. Thanks

Yup, intercooling is mucho important and shouldn't be substituted with water/methanol injection only as a Band-aid over mediocre intercooling. The preference of air-to-air or water-to-air is a largely philosophical, a matter of style over substance, opinion over hard advantages. The big advantage I can see about water-to-air is the ability just before a drag racing run to put ice water in the tank to deep chill the charge. It also can make the charge circuit a little shorter and put larger heat exchangers in less advantageous placements in the engine bay and not be too preoccupied with pressure losses through that heat exhanger. Water-to-air ICs also have more thermal inertia against heat soak. But whatever resists heating up also resists cooling down, and an already heat-soaked water-to-air intercooler will take far longer to cool down than an air-to-air IC.

dieselpower04 said:

This is interesting. I will take this into consideration when getting mine made.

Is the point of the smaller pipe by the turbo to keep the pressure higher than using a larger pipe?

Please elaborate. Thanks

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Yeah...I believe so. I didnt totally understand it... I just took the advice of someone who knew much more about it than I did. I am just curious what the "ideal" sizes are.

I am wondering if I should maintain the turbo outlet diameter all the way to the FMIC.