DieselGreen Fuels tests B100 in 2009 Jetta TDI

[shizzler]

Neurot, whats the status man? Real curious.

Bad news from my side: Had a detailed conversation at work with a new light duty diesel engine chief engineer yesterday. Their 2010 motor will feature a DPF, regenerated periodically with a post-injection fuel spray that is indeed AFTER the end of combustion. The piston will be far enough down the bore that significant fuel amounts will be left on the cyl. bore. This made me truly sad to hear. Aparently they found that the post injection has to be after combustion to get the DPF hot enough for de-sooting.

Oil contamination will be a real effect. The wear on internal engine parts due to biodiesel in oil vs. ULSD is now our main unknown. I still wouldnt be too worried, personally, but used oil analysis is likely critical.

He told me a lot of info, not all of which I remember or can share. Relating to your current problem, if the ECU doesnt see the temps it thinks it needs for proper de-soot, their engine will run the regen cycle longer (adverse effect on fuel economy) and eventually trigger the fault code. Note that this doesnt indicate any part failure or damage in any way.

Does anyone know the cost to replace just the DPF?

[Lightflyer1]

That is why I mentioned BTL. It should be "2/3 more green" than biodiesel. I believe any biomass would be able to be used, including algae if that makes it. Wood chips being used currently by VW in its efforts in the partnership with Choren. So unless you're a beaver or like eating waste biomass, I don't think it will interfere with the food supply.

D2 -> Biodiesel -> GTL -> BTL -> ?

Todays biodiesel will cease to exist in the near future except for those homebrewers who still choose to make and use it. This has been posted here before and I believe it is coming true.


http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...84/ai_n6049808

[IndigoBlueWagon]

Does anyone know how much regen temperature is affected by driving style? For example, if you needed more temp for regen could you create a better environment by driving the car hard enough to create more heat downstream of the engine?

[Zlartibartfast]

I know of a fellow over at jeepforums.com who chipped his CRD (an MB motor) and recorded a significant increase in EGT's as well as a big gain in power.

He explained that his tuning mods resulted in an increase in fuel delivery, therefore boosting power & raising temps. The discussion went on to speculation about buring up the DPF if it was boosted too far.

[NoSmoke]

Originally Posted by shizzler

Neurot, whats the status man? Real curious.

Bad news from my side: Had a detailed conversation at work with a new light duty diesel engine chief engineer yesterday. Their 2010 motor will feature a DPF, regenerated periodically with a post-injection fuel spray that is indeed AFTER the end of combustion. The piston will be far enough down the bore that significant fuel amounts will be left on the cyl. bore. This made me truly sad to hear. Aparently they found that the post injection has to be after combustion to get the DPF hot enough for de-sooting.

Oil contamination will be a real effect. The wear on internal engine parts due to biodiesel in oil vs. ULSD is now our main unknown. I still wouldnt be too worried, personally, but used oil analysis is likely critical.

This sounds like a pretty serious problem (how many owners are going to get routine oil analyses?). Why not inject the fuel directly into the exhaust manifold? I suppose that would cost a little more to manufacture but if it reduces engine wear it might be worth it.

[NarfBLAST]

Originally Posted by NoSmoke

This sounds like a pretty serious problem (how many owners are going to get routine oil analyses?). Why not inject the fuel directly into the exhaust manifold? I suppose that would cost a little more to manufacture but if it reduces engine wear it might be worth it.

If you know computers you may have experienced this analogy: why add hardware when you can do it with software (i.e. send an extra command to an existing injector). I agree the extra hardware should be there to make the system more robust. But if the engineers can "get away" with doing it with software, then that is what the marketing department will demand.

[DPM]

We aren't hearing of oil dilution issues in any of the other makes using a DPF.

[shizzler]

Originally Posted by IndigoBlueWagon

Does anyone know how much regen temperature is affected by driving style? For example, if you needed more temp for regen could you create a better environment by driving the car hard enough to create more heat downstream of the engine?

The regen will be allowed to occur only at cruising, part load conditions, never at WOT. If you could somehow know when regen was occuring, and then goosed it, my guess is the regen cycle would diasble until part load conditions returned. This would also make having a chipped car irelevant to the DPF, unless your WOT EGT's did get high enough to damage it. Unlikely though, since its designed to get super hot during regen and burn off the accumulated soot.

[TDIMeister]

Originally Posted by shizzler

Had a detailed conversation at work with a new light duty diesel engine chief engineer yesterday.

The line of your colleague's work and your location in Ann Arbor suggests to me the company is AVL?

[rodneyh1]

Originally Posted by DPM

We aren't hearing of oil dilution issues in any of the other makes using a DPF.

VW's post-injection fuel spray method for regen is unique, and this is where the concern is.

[DPM]

no it's not. Any CR can spray at any time.

edit: I should add, there is reference to post-injection in both the Bosch CR Yellow Book, and PSA's technical documents for the HDI series circa 1998.

[ikendu]

Originally Posted by rodneyh1

VW's post-injection fuel spray method....

It will be interesting to look at diesels from other companies as they begin to appear in the U.S. market.

Anyone know what the Mercedes current models use?

[Neurot]

Bad news - the dealer said they found excessive oil dilution AND the CEL was due to excessive biodiesel. They consulted with VW's tech line (this is a policy for all 2009 Jetta TDI's regardless of what they come in for). They took a fuel sample from the fuel filter, took pictures of my "powered by 100% biodiesel" sticker, and gave me a copy of all the data, including diagnostic logs. I had to ask for it, and they didn't want to give any of it to me, but I pressed them and they agreed. I told them up front I was using biodiesel, so there was no worry that I would be seen as being sneaky about anything.

I'll post all this information in PDF form when I have a chance, but I wanted this info to get out as soon as possible. I'm confident that my fuel is ASTM quality, so this isn't a case of bad fuel, poor handling, or a bad mechanic. They have simply crossed the line into territory that B100 doesn't belong in.

Also, the service manager said that they want me to run out the rest of the B100 tank I'm currently using, then fill up with diesel and bring in for a free oil change. No warranty issue going forward, although I did agree to pay a $98 service charge to the tech who performed the work. I was unaware of an asinine employment structure that my dealer has, in which each mechanic "works for free" unless either the customer or VW pays them for the work on each individual vehicle. So refusing to pay doesn't mean that VW has to eat it - it means that an individual mechanic got screwed. That feels so wrong to me, and puts the customer experience in jeopardy for fear of ripping off some guy who just works at a dealership.

The service advisor also said that VW told him that if I come in for service on the vehicle in the future, and I have B100 in it, they will "void the entire car's warranty". That ridiculous notion, as if they could not fix my radio because I'm using biodiesel, made me almost angry enough to pursue it on principle. I do hope to get something in writing from VW stating this policy, because it's obviously not legal to do such a thing. If I get any more information about it, I'll be sure to post.

I will also get a sample of the oil right before I take it in. I'll take 3 samples - one for Blackstone, one for my own use, and one to send off somewhere else if needed. I'll report those results as well.

I'm sad to report that the days of Volkswagen producing (willingly or not) the best cars to use biodiesel with are over. The 2009 Jetta TDI simply will not work with B100. There may of course be those that use it and have no problems, but my issue is as close to a smoking gun as we will get. The only thing left to do is to go over the diagnostics and have a third party confirm that the codes mean what they say, and that they aren't simply using the biodiesel as a scapegoat. I have no reason to think that's the case here, but mention it in the interest of fairness for anyone else wanting to pursue this.

From the 1977 diesel Rabbit to the 2006 Jetta TDI, Volkswagen has led the way for diesel passenger cars in America. With the newly designed emissions system in the US, they've jumped the shark and disappointed the faithful. Personally, I'll be looking to unload this petroleum-sucking turd and buy something that I can safely fuel with domestically-produced biodiesel made from waste vegetable oil. If anyone is interested in a 2009 base model, reflex silver, manual transmission, 2000 miles, send me an email. On a side note, I'm disappointed with the room in the back seat - barely enough to squeeze my baby seat in the middle and have the driver's seat back far enough to drive comfortably (I'm 6'0"). Does the Passat have more back seat room?

Thanks again for everyone's input (except for BKmetz and Thermo123), and I look forward to continued discussion and dissection of this issue.

[MethylEster]

Neurot,

I'm going to be very interested in learning what exact testing was done on your oil by the Dealer to determine the excessive oil dilution comment. I have a real hard time believing any competent lab could turn around a sample in the time this Dealer has had your car !!!

Did the Dealer give you any indication as to what VW has determined is " excessive " or not ? What % dilution is too much for VW ???

What has been ruined or destroyed equipment wise in your testing of 100% biodiesel ?

For discussions sake, what do you think might happen if you now switched back to 100% dino diesel ? After clearing the CEL's would this exhaust system now function correctly ??

Inquiring minds want to know !!!!

[CTD&TDI]

Originally Posted by rodneyh1

VW's post-injection fuel spray method for regen is unique, and this is where the concern is.

no its not, that is how cummins does it in the 6.7s and i believe so does ford and chevy...