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Non VW Group Diesels This section is for discusion of Non VWGroup Diesels.

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Old April 16th, 2000, 00:36   #16
Ric Woodruff
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Default Re: 1987 Mercedes Benz 190d 2.5 Turbo....

DSLPWR: What are you upset about???

I was just trying to help you out with add'l info, in case you had not checked the address attached.

I certainly would mind tips from others if I was in the market for a particular car.

Ric
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Old April 16th, 2000, 22:34   #17
mickey
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Default Re: 1987 Mercedes Benz 190d 2.5 Turbo....

I paid through the nose for Katie, relatively speaking. High book values were $12,200 (NADA) and $14,000 (Kelly "Blue Book.") I paid $13,900. I could have looked around and found a "bargain", and promptly dropped a couple thousand bucks trying to make the car servicable again. But by paying top dollar I'm able to spend my money on improving an already great car by ditching the soot trap and installing a gnarley Blaupunkt stereo. (Don't worry, BKmetz. The Becker is lovingly boxed up and tucked away in a closet.)

Yes, Ric, I'm aware that there are 190s available for 5K. There are probably some available for $500. But who would want them?

-mickey
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Old April 18th, 2000, 18:42   #18
DSLPWR
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Default Re: 1987 Mercedes Benz 190d 2.5 Turbo....

Well, I bought one. Papers arrive tomorrow for signature, then I coordinate shipping.
It's a financial challenge, but the salesman reassured me several times the car is in
great shape and needs nothing.

Complete records, everything operational, 98,000 miles. Gold with Palomino leather.
All options. Excellent condition. $7,950.00.

Wish me luck... It (was) listed under the diesel section at:
www.mercedeshowroom.com.

DSLPWR

[This message has been edited by DSLPWR (edited May 31, 2000).]
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Old April 19th, 2000, 10:19   #19
mickey
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Default Re: 1987 Mercedes Benz 190d 2.5 Turbo....

Excellent investment! I've had my eye on that one for a month or so. I'm glad to hear that a Fred's Forum member got it!

The first thing you need to do is replace the little rubber fuel line hoses that jump from injector to injector, and back to the pump. They'll probably be all original, and they'll be brittle and prone to leaking. For a small investment you can buy a length of that hose from an MB dealer. (Better still, order from an aftermarket place. I'll e-mail you a huge list of MB links that BKmetz sent me.) The hoses are difficult to remove, and will probably tear off. Just crunch the remaining bits into dust with a pair of pliars and clean up the tiny nozzles carefully before pushing new hoses on.

Congratulations! You've got a genuine Mercedes Benz that's roomier than any TDI, and which will get almost the same fuel economy as a TDI Automatic. I want one!

-mickey

p.s. Immediately change the oil and fill it with your favorite heavy duty Synthetic diesel oil. Put a new filter in there, too. Halfway through the first 5000 mile interval you should change the oil filter again, since the Synthetic will loosen up a lot of crap. If you're into illegal mods you can eliminate the EGR by simply pulling the vacuum hose off the actuator and plugging it. And if it has a trap oxidizer in the exhaust you might be able to locate a pipe intended for a non-U.S. model that will fit in its place. Your car might have a downstream catalyst instead of the trap oxidizer, though, and that won't be a problem unless it's plugged up.

[This message has been edited by mickey (edited April 19, 2000).]
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Old April 19th, 2000, 11:01   #20
Ric Woodruff
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Default Re: 1987 Mercedes Benz 190d 2.5 Turbo....

Hey Mickey, I am just curious; did you consider the 240D when MB shopping? or were you looking for something newer or with larger engine?

I am kind of looking for a car or small pickup for my son, and a 240D manual might be a good choice.

BTW: I drove a 220D 4 speed one time; it was pretty sluggish.

DSLPWR: After all the "praise" that salesmen get on this site, you believe them???

Ric
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Old April 19th, 2000, 13:16   #21
mickey
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Default Re: 1987 Mercedes Benz 190d 2.5 Turbo....

Hmmm. What happened to my reply?

-mickey

p.s. Oh, I get it. Ric cross-posted. Check out "Katie the Mercedes", Ric.

[This message has been edited by mickey (edited April 19, 2000).]
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Old April 19th, 2000, 19:01   #22
DSLPWR
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Default Re: 1987 Mercedes Benz 190d 2.5 Turbo....

mickey,

You know... There's something to be said for conincidences like BKmetz already having
sent me a slice of the same list he sent you. That's a good thing. Thanks for the advice on hoses. I will definetly check once I receive the car.

Illegally modifiying a Mercedes? Hmm... That's a decision... Let me drive it
first, then I can tell you better.
If it's fast already, I probably won't modify it. But since the comparison others are the SLK and a Golf GTI 16V...

Hi, my name is DSLPWR. I have a German problem...

DSLPWR
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Old April 19th, 2000, 19:15   #23
TDI Steve
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Default Re: 1987 Mercedes Benz 190d 2.5 Turbo....

I'm very jealous still... but I am working on getting my car to be considerably faster than your new baby, so I'll cope.
Good luck again!

------------------
silver/black 2000 Golf GL TDI /w Auto

[This message has been edited by TDI Steve (edited April 19, 2000).]
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Old April 19th, 2000, 21:30   #24
**DONOTDELETE**
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Default Re: 1987 Mercedes Benz 190d 2.5 Turbo....

Ric

They may be older that what you are considering but have you ever thought of an early eighties VW diesel pickup. I have one, they are a bit slow and noisy but I enjoy mine.

BTW they're relatively easy to work on and there aren't any electronic sensors or complex software to puzzle over. I don't know how well 20 yr old cars survive in Florida but there are still a few where I live that are serviceable.


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Louis
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Old April 20th, 2000, 13:22   #25
DSLPWR
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Default Re: 1987 Mercedes Benz 190d 2.5 Turbo....

Many moons ago, when I was learning to drive, my gandmother sold me her 1981 VW Pickup for $1.00 (just to make it legal). I absued that truck daily until I learned better. To this day, my dad drives it back and forth to work, averaging roughly 47 mpg.

Wonderful truck, limited supply, and those remaining are in questionable condition, either modified or actually used for work. If you can find one that's in good condition, keep it. Personal opinion there.

A whole 52 horsepower in that engine...

DSLPWR
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Old April 24th, 2000, 20:25   #26
dalcorn
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Default Re: 1987 Mercedes Benz 190d 2.5 Turbo....

I am going to look at a local 1987 Mercedes 190D Turbo with 127K miles on it this Wednesday. The seller represents that complete maintenance records are available. What should I review maintenance records for besides that the car was routinely taken to a dealership and things appear to have been taken care of as they came up?

What is the normal oil change interval for this model? The car is being sold because the owner is entering a nursing home, so I would not be surprised to find that the car has essentially been left sitting for some extended period of time. In addition to routine brakes, tires, batteries, antifreeze and fuel filters, I assume the ATF should have been changed a couple times (and not less recently that 50K miles ago), front struts changed at least once, and rear shocks replaced at least once. Should the timing chain have been replaced by this age? What else should I look for?

I live in the midwest and we sure do like salt during the winters. Is there anything atypical I should look for in terms of rust?
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Old April 25th, 2000, 06:19   #27
BKmetz
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Default Re: 1987 Mercedes Benz 190d 2.5 Turbo....


The MB recommended oil change interval for its diesel engines is 5000 miles. The timing chain and tensioner should not be an issue until 150K miles or so. The car probably would still have the original shocks, those old timers usually don't notice the ride going soft on them.

Maintenance records should show the usual oil and oil/fuel/air filter changes and least one tranny fluid and filter change. A car this old would have to show brake and exhaust work.

Items such as water pump, alternator, battery, starter, etc. should have been replaced once by now.

Problem areas to look at would be vacuum leaks (everything on MB diesels is vacuum controlled, EVERYTHING), HVAC problems, and any oil, coolant, or tranny fluid leaks.

The W201 190 is an easy car to work on and parts are cheap and easy to get. So if the car has a few minor problems, and every used car does, if the price is right I'd say go for it.

Let us know how it turns out.

Brian, 97 Passat TDI, 85 MB 300D-T
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Old April 25th, 2000, 10:51   #28
mickey
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Default Re: 1987 Mercedes Benz 190d 2.5 Turbo....

No shocks last forever, but you'd be surprised how good Katy's 14 year-old shocks are. (93,000 miles and counting!) MB uses Bilstein monotube shocks, which are about the highest quality you can get. I wouldn't recommend replacing them with anything but original-equipment shocks. Bilstein makes plenty of stiffer "sport" and racing shocks, but they'll jar your fillings out of your teeth. (Totota put some in my Tacoma 4x4. They're brutal.) Monotube shocks provide excellent handling and vehicle control even with the softer valving.

Dive right in and replace any rubber parts that look brittle. Pay particular attention to the little braided fuel hoses that hop from injector to injector. They'll probably be very brittle. Mine simply crubled when I tried to pull them off and I had to crunch them to bits with needle-nose pliers to remove all the residue.

If you're unsure about the transmission fluid change history go ahead and have the fluid and filter changed right away. You should also immediately switch to your favorite heavy duty synthetic diesel oil, and replace the oil filter a couple of times during the first 5K miles on synthetic oil. (The synth will loosen up a lot of crap, and the filter might get clogged pretty quickly.) I don't know whether the 190D Turbo had a trap oxidizer or not, but you'll want to look into getting rid of that miserable thing ASAP so you can start using some proper fuel additives. (Additives can ruin the oxidizer and plug it up.)

There are a lot of resources on the internet for parts and accessories, as well as technical advice. (BKmetz: Do you want to e-mail him The List, or shall I?)

-mickey
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Old April 27th, 2000, 20:28   #29
dalcorn
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Default Re: 1987 Mercedes Benz 190d 2.5 Turbo....

Trip report: It is not every day you get to look over a 1987 Mercedes 190D 2.5 Turbo Diesel that is "...meticulously maintained and serviced, all records available. Truely in very fine condition. Illness forces sale, going into nursing home." The $7,500 asking price was somewhat higher than the $5,325 retail listed for this car by Kelly Blue Book. However, as prior posts indicate, a documented maintenance history has value. The gloss from the finish caught my eye as I approached the residence, and then it all came to naught.

20-year-old relative #1 was working another prospect as I arrived. After greetings and bumming a cigarette from my wife he returned to the other prospect #1 which afforded me time to walk around the car and observe the numerous spots where the paint had been touched up as well as those where it had not. The best that can be said of the work was that the touch up kit got the color right. The two front jack points were clearly rusty. The sheet metal surrounding the rear jack points was simply gone, having succumbed to rust some time ago. The right front headlight lens cover was cracked. In anticipation of the sale, the center brake light bulb had been replaced, but none of the crew could figure out how to reattach the cover plate. General Tire has been running some low priced promotional tires in this marketing area and that's what she wore, together with a more than liberal application of tire dressing.

The car had clearly been professionally detailed, but this was not going to remove some of the interior carpet stains (especially the bright red spot: front passenger). MB Tex fabric, dashboard, and other interior items showed well after the detailing. While the seats looked good, any remnant of firmness was long gone.

The engine compartment showed beautifully, consistent with the steam cleaning that it had most recently received. The rubber, fuel lines appeared recent and gave no indication of brittleness. I searched for, but was unable to locate the dreaded soot trap. An Interstate Battery of most recent vintage was installed.

Around this time 30ish relative #2 arrived to bum a cigarette from my wife, secure our acquiescence for prospect #1 to take the car for a spin, and unintentionally make off-putting comments about my wife ethnic group (nothing hostile: just offish). I volunteered that this would be a good time to review the maintenance records. Conceptually, this was a good idea except that the records were locked in a garage and the key was in the possession of another relative who was in Greece and would return at an undetermined time.

He was kind enough to share with me that he had a $7,000 offer for the car from a guy next door, but that the check was from an out of state bank and it took forever for his bank to clear out of state checks. I volunteered that federal law requires a three-day clearing period and that if I were in his shoes I would take the offer based on the condition of the vehicle. He further indicated that in addition to the prospect currently driving the vehicle he had 8 more prospects lined up to look at the vehicle. I think that another real live purchase may have been represented. I wished him best luck, and left a business card with a note indicating that I would like to look at the maintenance records when they become available.

At some point, relative #3 also introduced himself, but taken together, my sense is that none of the three were familiar with any aspect of the car's maintenance history. I have not ruled out purchasing the car, but the seller or I will need a better understanding of the market before we can come to terms. I had sufficient cash in my pocket to close on the spot, but the situation was not ripe for purchase.
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Old April 28th, 2000, 06:12   #30
BKmetz
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Default Re: 1987 Mercedes Benz 190d 2.5 Turbo....

These people were not even the owners let alone quality owners. I just shake my head at people as this, they don't get it.

When you are looking for a car that means something to you, something special or rare, you are also interested in the owner as much as the car. These guys flunked.

Keep looking, you'll find the right one.

Caveat venditor! (Let the seller beware!)

Brian, 97 Passat TDI, 85 MB 300D-T


[This message has been edited by BKmetz (edited April 28, 2000).]
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