Rank your favorite WVO system

[vwcampin]

Originally Posted by GoFaster

Going back to the first page, does the Frybrid kit include any supplementary electric heat? I see all sorts of coolant heat exchangers, but when it is -20 C and low speed driving is involved, the coolant temp can often drop to 60 C and lower. How do they handle this?

Fyrbrid does not include any electric heat. The fuel loop created when running WVO normally can keep the heat even in the coldest conditions. I believe however the Fyrbrid controller will automatically switch back to diesel if the WVO temp goes below a certain level. So while you may not be driving on WVO, you would not be running on cold WVO.

[jamez7]

Originally Posted by vwcampin

Windsolar and Jamez7,
Either of you have a temp gauge? (just curious to see what temps you are seeing)
Have either of you added anything else to the systems? (insulation, add ons, etc.)

Just curious as I have no real world knowledge of these two kits.

Vwcampin no I dont have a temp gauge I plan to add one just so I know, I switch when car gets up to temp190 on gauge. No insulation lines come wraped in a pvc or rubber sheath 2 coolant 1 for oil and wiring for the heated filter and fuel gauge. Makes for a clean install under the car. Can send you some pics of install if you would like.

[T'sTDI]

Ok lets take the cold VO start up out of the picture on a single tank. Your still injecting cold VO into the chamber and you can't tell me that its burning correctly.
On two tank conversions people run into problems injecting VO at too cold of a temp (120 being hot, but not enough for two tank status, 160 being the magic number)

If this is true, how can a single tank conversion possibly be getting away with this??? Lets address burning issues and cylinder chamber issues. How could it possibly be burning this stuff. Are these injectors that amazing??? I still don't believe that all you need is an injector modification to make this stuff work at cold temps. If thats true, that absolutely blows my mind.

Is it logical to say that a single tank can't burn it as effectively and that a two tank is better for that. Makes sense in my head.

By the way, for people with spare time that want to learn about combustion characteristics with Vegitable oil fuels read here http://www.biomatnet.org/secure/Fair/F484.htm

A quick summary is Canola oil starts exhibiting similar characteristics of diesel fuel around 300 degrees. Could be accomplished with injection lines heaters as that would be post IP. Any thoughts???

[T'sTDI]

Originally Posted by jamez7

Vwcampin no I dont have a temp gauge I plan to add one just so I know, I switch when car gets up to temp190 on gauge. No insulation lines come wraped in a pvc or rubber sheath 2 coolant 1 for oil and wiring for the heated filter and fuel gauge. Makes for a clean install under the car. Can send you some pics of install if you would like.

****WARNING****

Not sure what setup you got but don't assume that VO is anywhere near it needs to be when your cars up to operating temp. You absolutely need a temperature sendor, its not that hard to do and it gives you piece of mind.

My advice, lay off the sauce until you got a reading. I think most people will agree with that. This could save your car, your not going to get away with that long term.... 160 is the minimum temp you want before you inject.

[T'sTDI]

Another quick thing to add, does Elsbetts setup prevent injector coking?? It so i would think thats worth the money right there, but if not what do you do if you run into that issue. Send them overseas again for another 2-3 weeks before they send you back something in return???

Keep me posted on the injector install Pete, I am still interested in what you find.

[TDICult]

Originally Posted by T'sTDI

Another quick thing to add, does Elsbetts setup prevent injector coking??

That is a good question. I pulled one of my Elsbett injectors and the picture is open to interpretation. The injector holes are certainly clean so in my view it not effecting the spray pattern however but the main shank is badly coked and clearly that is not a good sign. This injector had the wrong type of copper seal washer in for a few weeks while I waited on a spare. The seal washer is important part of the Elsbett set up.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread...=206587&page=3

I will pull injector another in a few thousand miles. the car is running well at the moment so I am lothed to upset it

[TDICult]

Originally Posted by T'sTDI

Your still injecting cold VO into the chamber and you can't tell me that its burning correctly.

If its is correctly atomised it will burn fine. Remember the combustion chamber is at 750°C at the point of injection. Bad atomisation means large fuel droplets that are hard to vapourise and burn. This is when you get into problems.

Originally Posted by T'sTDI

Is it logical to say that a single tank can't burn it as effectively and that a two tank is better for that. Makes sense in my head.

True - until the engine is hot.

But you compensate for this by improved atomisation, running the injector deeper in the combustion zone and improved glow plug operation to get the engine started. The engine runs fine on cold veg oil/cold engine but it does runs quieter within 4 minutes of start as it warms up. (much quieter than running on diesel)

The advantages of the single tank are that that you are running straight away on veg oil, dont need a seperate tank and the system has a high reliability as its simple and not relying on valve changeovers.

My single tank has never not started in the cold provided the battery was fine. Temp range was down to -10°C in Jan Feb. It did however take 4 to 5 cranks. It is also true it started as normal with one crank if 5% diesel was added. Above 5°C there is no difference in starting compared to diesel (although you need extended glow plugs). Above 12°C I am finding I dont need the glow plugs to operate.

[BioDiesel]

"Your still injecting cold VO into the chamber and you can't tell me that its burning correctly.
On two tank conversions people run into problems injecting VO at too cold of a temp (120 being hot, but not enough for two tank status, 160 being the magic number)"

Apples and Oranges. No-inj mod.'s vs. inj. mod.'s
My TDI would have had severe problems by now cold starting on VO if not for the inj. mod.s
But there is incomplete combustion when cold. Thats why Elsbett warns against "short trips", and advises 1/2 OCI's. One TDI s-t has gone 200k+ miles . They appear to know what they're doing.

"Another quick thing to add, does Elsbetts setup prevent injector coking??"
I don't know of any modification done for this.

"My advice, lay off the sauce until you got a reading. "
Good advice.

IMO, temp gauges should be placed on the output of the ip, not the input.
The output tellls you what the temp of the ip is, not just the oil outside the ip.

[93FryGuy]

Originally Posted by vwcampin

Fyrbrid does not include any electric heat. The fuel loop created when running WVO normally can keep the heat even in the coldest conditions. I believe however the Fyrbrid controller will automatically switch back to diesel if the WVO temp goes below a certain level. So while you may not be driving on WVO, you would not be running on cold WVO.

There is a larger filter they have with electric heat, and plenty of it for the larger applications, like box trucks or bigger. Any other applications it isnt needed, usually.

Any vehicle is going to have trouble with keeping temps up in the winter without much of a load, so what you can do is get a higher temp thermostat, a front grill cover, and an auxillary coolant pump from a Mercedez Benz that had them on- you should be easily set to go.

If I experience problems keeping temps up, then I will first install a front cover, then an auxillary coolant pump, but first goes in a hotter thermostat, which I am PRETTY sure they are available.... I think......

HEY HEY This reminds me---so does anyone think it wise to put a hotter thermostat in a TDI? In the Ford PSD's it IS recomended, so please, let me know, and if so, where to get one??

Cheerio!

[T'sTDI]

Originally Posted by 93FryGuy

HEY HEY This reminds me---so does anyone think it wise to put a hotter thermostat in a TDI? In the Ford PSD's it IS recomended, so please, let me know, and if so, where to get one??

Cheerio!

I have thought of this an I have come to a simple conclusion. The car can certainly run hotter but VW chose 190 running coolant temps for a reason. Why should you make the car run hotter if it wasn't designed to do so? Instead of making the car run hotter for the VO, you should make the VO hotter to run in the engine and there are plenty of ways to do this. Maybe go down the electrical route. Just me two cents worth

[T'sTDI]

I'll combine two thoughts and ideas on this one.

We have a picture of an Elsbett injector correct? It is showing signs of coking on the shaft of the injector but not so much in the orfices where it counts. Pictures are worth a thousand words but only the person running these injectors can tell you whether theres a problem with them or not.

Can we get a number on the amount of miles on that injector please??

Does anyone know the reason why the injectors sit deeper in the chamber? Is it for coking reasons or is it to limit the amount of fuel sprayed on the chamber walls??

Injector coking seems to be a real problem with any kit. If your injector isn't spraying your going to go down a long bad road if not addressed in due time.

Whether you got Elsbett injectors or just the normal injectors, if both are coked in the same amount of time, the injector isn't all that special, it would need to be replaced regardless.

That could be a wrong statement because I am unsure if Elsbett injectors last longer than normal injectors.

For the setups with 200K or Elsbett setups in particular, do they replace these nozzels every 50K or so or do they last a good amount of time?

Are they truly "special" is my question.

You buy Elsbetts kit for their engineering. The one thing no American setup addresses...Many people buy Elsbetts kit for the reason above and that is their injectors. If the injectors last a good while before needing to be replaced, you might have a buyer here, but if there being coked in short time like the example, I don't think its worth that.

Provide as much info as you can. I'm on the fence so to speak between Frybrid and Elsbett.

[T'sTDI]

Originally Posted by TDICult

If its is correctly atomised it will burn fine. Remember the combustion chamber is at 750°C at the point of injection. Bad atomisation means large fuel droplets that are hard to vapourise and burn. This is when you get into problems.

Yes, but your chamber isn't no where near 750C at start up. Your going to have terrible atomization till you do warm up, then I agree.

Originally Posted by TDICult

True - until the engine is hot.

But you compensate for this by improved atomisation, running the injector deeper in the combustion zone and improved glow plug operation to get the engine started. The engine runs fine on cold veg oil/cold engine but it does runs quieter within 4 minutes of start as it warms up. (much quieter than running on diesel)

The advantages of the single tank are that that you are running straight away on veg oil, dont need a seperate tank and the system has a high reliability as its simple and not relying on valve changeovers.

My single tank has never not started in the cold provided the battery was fine. Temp range was down to -10°C in Jan Feb. It did however take 4 to 5 cranks. It is also true it started as normal with one crank if 5% diesel was added. Above 5°C there is no difference in starting compared to diesel (although you need extended glow plugs). Above 12°C I am finding I dont need the glow plugs to operate.

Thats pretty amazing. I know there is success with Elsbett and makes me want their kit more and more. Any more success stories?? Any more sharing on your experiences? What blend do you us say around 20 or so degrees. Thats about the coldest it gets around here in Maryland, pending anything really extreme.

[VeeDubTDI]

Originally Posted by T'sTDI

Why should you make the car run hotter if it wasn't designed to do so?

Why should you make the car run on WVO if it wasn't designed to do so?

[vwcampin]

Originally Posted by VeeDubTDI

Why should you make the car run on WVO if it wasn't designed to do so?

VeeDub, can we please not go back down the road of petty arguments. Add something of value, or ignore the thread or just read it and say nothing.

Why chip your car if it wasn't designed that way?
Why add a bigger turbo if your car wasn't designed to use it?
Why add a taller fifth gear if your car wasn't designed to use it?
Etc.
Etc.
But to answer your question, my reasoning is environmental, hobbyist, and it feels good being my own fuel station.

[BioDiesel]

Re: Too cold for VO, 0*F or lower.

The suggestion to add a radiator block or wind shield in front of the ip is a good idea. Changing the thermostat is probably not good. The concern is the fuel is too viscous at <140*F. There are simple ways to lower the viscosity temporarily w/o adding electric heat. Just thin with 5% diesel or kerosene.
Doing it for Jan + Feb won't dent your WVO usage too much.


And put darkscout and VeeDub on your ignore lists'.