Alcohol injection dynos Turbo diesel

Just to let you guys know the gains are big with the 4cly turbo diesels, We recently did a demo in the Philippines to show our kits out and heres some results.

This is his set up, We completely ditched the factory intercooler, There is a DO1 nozzle pre turbo which you can see from the charts the resutls of the instant spooling it provides even with 100% water the TQ off the line is impressive and a DO2 nozzle at the intake to further cool things down. Now a DO3 nozzle at the intake would work just as well on most vehicles but this one struggled to make boost so we did pre-turbo which makes the little turbo act like a big one.

We did pulls with 30/70 methanol/water and then switch over to 50/50 denatured because the meth was already mixed at 30% gains probably would have been even greater with the methanol.

Note the mixture was 30/70 methanol/water if it is not stated on the dyno sheet. The other mix we use was 62P bottle of Ethly alcohol from the drug store 500ml and 500ml water for the 50/50 mix. The gains were huge
System activates at around 1400rpm on this 2001 Starex
BASE LINE VS 100% WATER

Note 30lbs or around 40nm tq that you have at activation of the system even with 100% water vs the stock. This is the pre-turbo injection benifit. Little turbo acting like a bigger more efficient turbo.


Here is a comparison of different activation points with 30/70 methanol /water..


TQ numbers
Notice the 50lbs or 67nm improvement at 1500rpms and 38lbs or 51nm at 2500rpms.


This is were we change it up to 50/50 mix, The methanol was already pre-mixed so we had to go with ethyl alcohol which I bought for 62P in a 500ml bottle. Gains will be higher with methanol because it has a higher octane number and better cooling.

Once again 50lbs more TQ AT 1500rpm the turbo spools up instantly when the system starts to inject. The effect is instant torque at low RPM's.


Here is a Mazda MPV that just installed the kit and the dyno results from 3 days ago.

Great results at 1500 to 3000rpm power and torque increases are great but the turbo does fall flat on it's face at around 3600rpms a pre-turbo nozzle would give you alot more gains in your top rpm range.
But look at the max gains.

1500 rpms 14hp TQ 47LBS Max HP Gain 43% Max TQ gain 46%
2000 rpms 32hp TQ 84LBS Max HP Gain 63% Max TQ gain 65% HUGE!!
2500 rpms 17hp TQ 36LBS MAX HP Gain 20% Max TQ gain 21%
3000 rpms 10hp TQ 19LBS MAX HP Gain 10% Max TQ gain 11%

To give you a ideal how well the system is working when you just look at the gains on just water alone it's enough to be impressed.

1500rpms 6.3hp gain- 20% over stock / TQ 22lbs 22% over stock
2000rpms 18hp gain - 36% over stock / TQ 47lbs 36% over stock
2500rpms 12.5hp gain- 15% over stock/ TQ 26lbs 15% over stock
3000rpms 6.9hp gain- 7% over stock/ TQ 12lbs 7% over stock

Even just using water give you good gains and if you want more power just add some alcohol to the mix and you got it. There is simply no modification for the money that can do this and all without changing anything about your engine. Even on pure water you get marked improvements in acceleration and fuel economy as well as reduced emissions.

As we stated before these vehicles have undersized turbos and the pre turbo injection signifiacatly helps them with the top end power Just compare the starex dyno. If he puts on a Pre turbo nozzle the power up to will be much greater.

All in all very impressive must be a blast to drive compared to stock.

Was all this on a standard vehicle/s.

Yes both are standard transmissions. Newer turbo diesels will get even better gains because of more effiecient turbos and engines.

So far we have not found a tuning chip that can out perform it on on 4cly TD applications.

Notice one more thing.

No more black smoke

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wGcJ94wtQ0

I like seeing detailed analyses like this. Thanks for sharing!

Have you measured the boost curve differences and EGT differences?

I wonder how much the boost spikes are increased with the D01 nozzle.

I was only there for the starex Dyno and it does not have either gauge, We do have a Isuzu Tropper that has the kit there that does have boost and EGT gauge, The boost gauge was in bars so that tosses me for a loop lol. But he was seeing around 65C to 90C EGT drops with his DO3 nozzle 3 GPH (189ml/min)

You can get even bigger gains by increasing the stock boost or adjusting the timing and still keep economy without having to add more fuel. You can't go to big on these on HP our your trash the tranny prettty quck or pop a head gasket. But anouther 20HP could easily be gained with a simple boost controller. You have to be carefull when running with a chip because gains may be to much for your motor and drivetrain.

4cly turbo diesels tend to pick up a ton of power from this, We will have some more dynos in a few weeks on some newer Common rail injection diesels like the Toyota Fortuner.

What about impeller erosion with the pre compressor nozzle..?

dvldoc said:

I was only there for the starex Dyno and it does not have either gauge, We do have a Isuzu Tropper that has the kit there that does have boost and EGT gauge, The boost gauge was in bars so that tosses me for a loop lol. But he was seeing around 65C to 90C EGT drops with his DO3 nozzle 3 GPH (189ml/min)

You can get even bigger gains by increasing the stock boost or adjusting the timing and still keep economy without having to add more fuel. You can't go to big on these on HP our your trash the tranny prettty quck or pop a head gasket. But anouther 20HP could easily be gained with a simple boost controller. You have to be carefull when running with a chip because gains may be to much for your motor and drivetrain.

4cly turbo diesels tend to pick up a ton of power from this, We will have some more dynos in a few weeks on some newer Common rail injection diesels like the Toyota Fortuner.

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First, welcome to the club, and thanks for posting this. I posted a link to this thread in my thread titled: Properties of Water in the Diesel Cycle.

I'm very interested in water/methanol injection and advancing the timing in proportion to water/meth injection rates.

Rub87 said:

What about impeller erosion with the pre compressor nozzle..?

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The nozzle is producing a atomized mist of around 30 microns at 200+psi with the DO1 - DO2 nozzle. We have seen no issues, the paticles are simply to small to affect the impeller. Your air filter cannot filter out particles in the 30 micron range so you suck down dust, sand, and other debre that size all the time. Unless your running a K&N style filter your sucking down things from 150 to 50 microns all the time. K&N is good to about 10 to 30 micros.

There are ridiculously long threads about this on some forums but you won't find that anyone has bothered to test it just a bunch of copy and past technobabble and second hand facts. Same as testing the effect of pre-turbo injection on vehicles, not one single dyno to show the effect nor one single one that shows power differences between different mixes or solutions. So the answer to your question is no it does not effect the impeller. You need to stay with the small nozzle sizes to make it effective by not pushing to much at once through it. The only thing the impeller looks like is clean. We actually do testing and don't rely on internet post for facts.


With larger more efficient turbos this is really not needed but older vehicles that have small ones that spool slow and produce little boost this makes a big difference in performance on those vehicles.

Outstanding information, dvldoc. Are there are any guidelines you use for volume injected vs. say total engine power, or engine displacement, etc.. Are these guidelines different for pre-turbo and post-turbo injection?

We have a nozzle size calculator that you can use to determine how much gph you need. For the pre turbo injection A DO1 or 1gph/63ml/min for 2.5 liters and down and a D02 2gph/126ml/min are the only 2 sizes we recommend for the pre turbo injection it is just enough to make a little turbo perform like a larger one. You can spray to much and it takes only a small amount to get the job done. Turbo diesels have shown they can run a little bigger on the nozzle size than gas engines we could have made way more power on the MPV with just adding a 3gph nozzle which that engine can handle but don't want to break the drivetrain besides it's not a race car. So if you get say 2gph for your flow or close to that than you can mount the 2gph nozzle pre-turbo. If you get 3gph we recommend you either just stick with post turbo install or dual nozzle set up with a 1GPH nozzle pre-turbo and one post. This works like a champ.

Bigger turbos like on 8cly turbo diesel work well enough they don't need the help and the gains are mininum but if your pushing a older vehicle with a tiny turbo and running low boost then this makes a night and day differenece in performance.

Like i said you can also split it with a dual nozzle system and put one DO1 pre-turbo and a second nozzle right at your intake. Thats how the set-up on the starex was and a few others we test are. The turbo spools up almost instantly as soon as the system activates with this set up and you have instant Tq down low and don't have to wait that extra 1000rpm's or so for the turbo to hit max boost.

The MPV posted above picked up all that power just using one DO2 2gph/126ml/min nozzle and is non intercooled. Even with post turbo installation of the nozzle your turbo will still boost up rather quickly, alot faster than it does stock. Some of the older engines just need help, The starex struggled and I mean struggled to get to 6psi so it really needed it. But if you can hit at least 6 fairly quickly then your fine with post turbo because as soon as the system hits the power is instant. It was actually to much down low for the MPV so he is going to water down his mix to 15% to 20% because it kicks like a mule when the system comes on.

http://www.alcohol-injection.com/forum/attachments/nozzle-size-calculator/150d1167798776-alcohol-nozzle-size-calculator-alcoholinjectioncalculator.exe

this is good stuff...I plan on doing this when I upgrade to an 11mm pump. I will probably just do one nozzle into the intake manifold.

dvldoc, your program doesn't seem to like my computer for some reason. Any chance that you can give us a screenshot for a 1.9L @ 4700 @ 19 lbs of boost, and one for a 1.9L @ 5200 @ 24 lbs of boost?

Anybody else, for that matter?

You would need the D04 Nozzle you come up at 3.81gph, We are the only ones that carry that size we have more nozzles sizes than anyone else.

Ok, I'm interested enough to buy one.

You can see my mods in my signature. I've already got extra fuel (PP520s) and some agressive tuning, as well as a larger intercooler.

Where would I mount the nozzle? Which kit would I buy?

Cheers,
ibanix

ibanix said:

Ok, I'm interested enough to buy one.

You can see my mods in my signature. I've already got extra fuel (PP520s) and some agressive tuning, as well as a larger intercooler.

Where would I mount the nozzle? Which kit would I buy?

Cheers,
ibanix

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It depends on if you want a Progressive controller or just boost activated,

You will use a 3gph nozzle for your set up I'll PM you specifics.

I've been looking at my options for water/methanol injection. I'd be interested to hear what you have to offer.

vwmikel said:

I've been looking at my options for water/methanol injection. I'd be interested to hear what you have to offer.

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Have you check out the site and compared yet. That is the best way to do it. Compare part for part from other kits then make up your mind from there. Don't want to turn this thread into a ad if you know what I mean.

But as far as kits goes ours is one of the best, the new nozzles are just one of the new things to come this year.

I'm really liking the looks of the universal 4-cyl diesel kit. Is that price in USD? Also, how is shipping to the US?

Nickel plated injectors. Thanks for posting and showing us your data.

Brendan

dvldoc said:

Have you check out the site and compared yet. That is the best way to do it. Compare part for part from other kits then make up your mind from there. Don't want to turn this thread into a ad if you know what I mean.

But as far as kits goes ours is one of the best, the new nozzles are just one of the new things to come this year.

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They're definitely more reasonably priced than the snow performance kits. I'm wondering how badly I would need progressive control. Does that controller use it's own map sensor or connect to the stock one? Does it require a tach input (obviously that would be difficult)? I can't really tell, but do these kits use solenoids or check valves?

Devil,

I'd like to set up one small nozzle pre-compressor pointed directly at the compressor wheel's center nut (between 4-8 mm from nut) with a holder like this (from Aquamist)



Can you make me an insert like that?

Later, I want to add some nozzles into the intake manifold--I'll tap and thread in some female bung ports if necessary. But for now I just want pre-compressor injection like this. Any experience?

vwmikel said:

They're definitely more reasonably priced than the snow performance kits. I'm wondering how badly I would need progressive control. Does that controller use it's own map sensor or connect to the stock one? Does it require a tach input (obviously that would be difficult)? I can't really tell, but do these kits use solenoids or check valves?

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Kits are USD.

To be honest diesels are fine with either kit, Progressive is not absolutely needed, I would however add a activation light and a on off toggle.

The controller connects to the stock MAP sensor , and can power a map sensor and read it on it's own.

Yes I know of that ring from aquamist and Our nozzle will actually screw right in for that. The spray patter on most nozzle is a pretty good sized cone which even at 2 inchs away will be about 1.5 inches accoss so your still misting the blades no matter what. So you can either go that rought our just mount it right at coupler right before the turbo.

We only recommend the DO1 or DO2 for pre-turbo injection because they have the highest pressure and lowest atomization. Alot of our overseas customers use this set up especially on the older japan made turbo diesels. You would laugh if you saw how small the turbos were on these things.

We use a checkvalve in our kits you can see it on the skyline below. It is part of the nozzle holder.

dvldoc said:

We only recommend the DO1 or DO2 for pre-turbo injection because they have the highest pressure and lowest atomization. Alot of our overseas customers use this set up especially on the older japan made turbo diesels. You would laugh if you saw how small the turbos were on these things.

We use a checkvalve in our kits you can see it on the skyline below. It is part of the nozzle holder.

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What do you think the advantage is pre vs post turbo? I think i would be concerned about losing atmoization as it goes through the intercooler. Injecting in the charge pipe close to the intake manifold seems like a good spot to me.

What do you think about the use of a check valve rather than a solenoid?

Is the pump always running or does it shut off once pressure is reached?

Witj stock inlet manifold cilinder 1 and 4 well get less probaly.. I was thinking of making my own manifold, somthing like the kerma short runner with a large plenum with trumpets inside, and place one nozzles per runner in the plenum just before the trumpet, for optimal balance between cilinders..

I would use solenoid + checkvalve to prevent dripping..

Rub87 said:

Is the pump always running or does it shut off once pressure is reached?

Witj stock inlet manifold cilinder 1 and 4 well get less probaly.. I was thinking of making my own manifold, somthing like the kerma short runner with a large plenum with trumpets inside, and place one nozzles per runner in the plenum just before the trumpet, for optimal balance between cilinders..

I would use solenoid + checkvalve to prevent dripping..

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The pressure switch grounds the pump when it hits the set pressure this runs the pump, So it is only on in the set range only.

Solenoid is a electrical item that can fail due to shorts the less crap you put in your system the better, Check valves last pretty much forever, Ours can be taken apart and serviced. The only thing that will screw up a check valve is debri making the ball stick open, But then again diesels do not make vac so you don't have to worry about siphoning unless the tank is mounted higher than the pump. You should really not use both and there is no reason too. That check valve can take 60in of vacuum before it will let anything by it, No vehicle makes that much and you don't make any.

We have not found any difference in Direct port and single nozzle on basic engines unless your running a 500hp monster you just don't need it. Your intakes are computer designed and flow tested and do a good job of delivering equal airflow to all cylinders if it didn't the vehicle would not run right.

There is pressure drop every time you add a nozzle so the nozzle will actually not be equal, every time you add anouther nozzle there is a drop between the different nozzles. Direct port is only for people who can tune there vehicle via a program, IE controll the fuel distrubution cells , timing, PWM of injectors for each cylinder. Because the flow is not equal with 4 nozzles. The closest nozzle will have the highest pressure than it drops as you go down the line.

What do you think the advantage is pre vs post turbo? I think i would be concerned about losing atmoization as it goes through the intercooler. Injecting in the charge pipe close to the intake manifold seems like a good spot to me.

What do you think about the use of a check valve rather than a solenoid?

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If you have a slow spooling turbo and you want instant response then a small nozzle pre-turbo does the trick everytime, You can do a dual nozzle set up one being pre turbo and one pre intake this takes care of the lost cooling going through the intercooler.

This is how we do many of the 4cly turbo diesels overseas that have the undersized turbos and low HP like the Starex in the dyno. You can see by the graph how it responded to the pre turbo nozzle and how the top end stayed strong all the way through the RPM range compared to the MPV which ran out of breath at the Higher RPM range because the turbo simply went out of its efficiency range.

Is pre-turbo needed (no) does it work you bet it does, Makes a small turbo act like a larger one. The owner of the MPV is putting a DO1 pre turbo and DO1 pre intake now to get his top end back. Should be able to dyno it again when I go back to the Philippines for a dyno day next month.

If I did a small nozzle pre-turbo then wouldn't I essentially need to run it in two stages? If it works as you say it does then wouldn't you want your pre-turbo nozzle on at low boost with your post turbo nozzle on at high boost? It could easily be done with two solenoids and two pressure switches but it does add a small amount of complexity.

We have not found any difference in Direct port and single nozzle on basic engines unless your running a 500hp monster you just don't need it. Your intakes are computer designed and flow tested and do a good job of delivering equal airflow to all cylinders if it didn't the vehicle would not run right.

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Maybe some gasser ones are.. but a stock tdi manifold is quite far of..

The reason I'd go for solenoid is that when in a turn or so the pump sucks some air, and then you're running without boost shortly after that the air in the lines will act as a buffer and the engine will get too much water at the time..

Rub87 said:

Maybe some gasser ones are.. but a stock tdi manifold is quite far of..

The reason I'd go for solenoid is that when in a turn or so the pump sucks some air, and then you're running without boost shortly after that the air in the lines will act as a buffer and the engine will get too much water at the time..

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If your pump is sucking air then you are already too low on fluid for the system you should place the tap were that does not happen we have autocrossers that use this set up all the time without a problem. .

You can't get to much water at one time because it is metered by the nozzle size, It will only give you X amount of volume at X amount of pressure. A small bit of air in the line will pass through the system rather quickly maybe a second or so. The problem with sucking air is not getting two much fluid at one time it is that your not getting fluid at your set point until the air has passed so your getting late not early.

So it does not matter if you use a solenoid or checkvalve. A solenoid is just a electric checkvalve instead of a cracking pressure it is activated as soon as the kits set point is reach and the pump is running. The checkvalve only allows fluid through if it reaches 16psi of pressure.

But if a solenoid is what you want to use it's all good, we carry those too.

Has anyone actually done a flow test of the runners with actual data of the flow in CFM to determine how much difference they actually are? In less it's been flow tested you really can't say how good or bad the flow is or how signifigant it is between cyl's

Looks like a pretty simple design on the TDI motors no major bends or anything. Nozzle placement for direct port could be iffy if you don't know exactly how they split on the inside.

to me it seems obvious that 2 and 3 will flow easier than 1 and 4 ..

That intake manifold is just open space inside. Then it divides to "runners right at the spot the audi logo can be seen on that manifold. No venturis or nothing to smoothen out the flow. Its just a flat part slighly rounded edges between the so called runners. Crap Crap and once again Crap. Well some older versions are even worse but that is a sorry excuse.

Rub87 said:

to me it seems obvious that 2 and 3 will flow easier than 1 and 4 ..

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You would think so.

Most 4cly turbo diesels have the log style intake manifold. Most have the opening at the end not the center which is probably worse for distrubution than having it centered. But with out putting it on the flow bench, no real way to say how much flow difference is between them at any given CFM. And is it considerble enough to effect anything.